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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on July 14, 2007

Another D1 bites the dust. We need a nationwide effort to plan for a method to stop this continuing trend, if this trend does not stop soon we will not be able to stop the growing boldness of athletic directors to feel they can cancel wrestling programs without consequence. The wrestling coaches in all divisions better wise up and start grouping together to stop the deleting of programs before they all lose their jobs. Come on coaches get started now!



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 15, 2007

i don't disagee, but the real time to fight this trend was in the 1970's and 1980's --- alot easier to fight to KEEP what you got, than to fight to try to get back what you lost. Once its gone, much much harder to ever get it back. And SO MUCH has already been lost.

The other killer--- and i am surprised so few admit it--- is mens Div I football. Why do they need 85 fulls, when NFL squads consist of 49 players (plus a handful on the so-called taxi squad) ????

and stats say 2/3 of Div I football programs LOSE $$$ too.

What is left for the rest of the mens sports after football has gouged out its 85 fulls ??? and why does every football player need to be on a Full ?? many of these guys are just gonna ride the pine for 4 or 5 years.



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on July 15, 2007

It's BIG news in sports circles that Oklahoma University lost 4 or 5 football scholarships... and I was thinking about that and how much they had to start with compared to wrestling's maximum at 9.9... and I just had to laugh.



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on July 15, 2007

Bob:

Wrestling gets 1 full for each of the 10 positions (weight classes) over a 4-5 year period, while football receives 85 fulls for from 24-35 positions (offense, defense, kickers and specialist), which amounts to about 3 fulls or less per position over a 4-5 year period. Being that football is usually the only one or two sports (Basketball the other.) that make money this does not seem to be too far out of line. If wrestling could start to bring in 5000-6000 for dual meets then they would probably deserve 18-20 fulls, which would bring them more in line with the scholarships given for basketball. Wrestling has had to be more creative in helping wrestlers gain scholarships for need, scholastics, field of study, etc., and has been exceptional at developing money making camps and clinics to pay their wrestlers in the off season. The 9.9 fulls is a little misleading, because with these other methods they really have more.

As for the 49+ for the NFL; they always have the 49+ and if someone gets hurt they just replace them with another. Of the 85 for college they usually lose 20-25 to graduation or dropouts each year.



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on July 16, 2007

Ken R Sr--You make a very interesting point about # of positions and schollys but you're off base when you state that basketball and football usually make money. That's not really true. Ohio State and Michigan football make a ton of cash but does Indiana University? Do most MAC football programs earn money (answer no.). In fact a year ago there was an article about how low attendance is a major problem for MAC schools. The truth is that football can be a huge drain on a school's finances (I'm less certain about basketball) but no one wants to drop football? Why? Alumni anger, bad press, etc... If Kent drops wrestling, there'd be a minor uproar. If the Golden flashes drop football (for Title 9 compliance or strictly financial reasons), we'd never stop reading about it--even though the program has been mostly terrible for the last 20 years. Plus, the league would go nuts.

I'm guessing that there are probably 30-40 D1 football programs around the country that do well financially. The majority are probably barely covering expenses or running in the red.



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 16, 2007

"As for the 49+ for the NFL; they always have the 49+ and if someone gets hurt they just replace them with another. Of the 85 for college they usually lose 20-25 to graduation or dropouts each year."
------------------------------------------------

Ken, u r right if an NFL player is out hurt, they replace him, good point.

But no, no, no Ken--- its 85 Fulls at any given time in Div I college football---- at all times, regardless of who is lost to graduation or quits the team or flunks out those open Fulls are immediately filled, usually be incoming freshmen, sometimes by walk ons.

Right now Ohio st football has 85 guys on Fulls
. Same will be true 3 months from now and 6 months from now and one year from now. -----and no one has addressed the question, WHY does every Div I football player have to have a Full ????

and as i already said, and Hank said too, most Div I program lose $$$.

Fact is women are always going to get their share of scholarships--- but mens sports are dragged down by the monster at the table, football.



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on July 16, 2007

Bob and Hank:

Hank-If you took a college football team with say a $500,000 budget and say the are lossing 2-3%, I would wonder if that would take into regard the endorsement monies the football team would bring in and effect the team would have on donations from alumni and supporters. I don't believe these factors are factored into any formula figuring the financial stability of the football teams. (The $500,000 is just a figure for example.) Also, most of the teams have radio and television contracts and I would wonder if all that money is included in the financial comparisons.

Bob-My point with the 20-25 students leaving each year was not that it decreased the 85 total fulls, but that a new 20-25 students entered the scholarship system each year (Football and basketball teams can lose many players each year as they are able to leave to play professionally before finishing their education.) Wrestling does not have to compete with professional teams and most wrestlers would stay in school to get their degrees. Even mediocre D1 football teams draw 20-35,000 (I believe the D1 teams are required to have seating for about 35,000 to be eligible for D1.) I know every D1 team does not average 35,000, but they still draw decent crowds compared to 85 players. Teams averaging 15,000 would be bringing in an average of about 177 spectators per player and a team like Ohio State would average about 95,000 or about 1118 spectators per player. Wrestling teams would not average that many per a whole team, even Iowa who may draw about 5000 for a big match would only average about 500 per wrestler.



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on July 17, 2007

KRsr--I would expect that tv, radio revenues are figured in. How a football squad affects donations, etc... probably isn't. I would prefer that universities not cut any sports. But wrestling has continuously gotten the ax because no one dares touch football regardless of how much money it loses. The fact is that if football programs were cut more often, the hue and cry would lead to a re-assessment in how Title 9 is applied. Remember there are several ways that schools can demonstrate compliance yet only "proportionality" has been widely utilized. Simply stop making "proportionality" the major factor in compliance, and you'll take the pressure off AD's to cut minor sports.

I would add a couple comments. Wrestling has some difficult issues that are going to make the future rocky. Weight cutting is not only unpopular but I believe it adversely affects grades. Wrestlers are not performing well academically as a whole and I don't think we're less academically capable than other groups of athletes. Simply put, wrestling takes more energy than other college sports. If you're expending huge amounts of energy and starving yourself, how do you properly study? Generally speaking, you don't. With the APR standards that are now being utilized, wrestling may take a big hit. Moreover, poor academic performance could become another excuse (and a more legit one) to slice off wrestling programs at universities. I think the issue of weight cutting is our worst problem and the one that we have to tackle. Dehydration and starvation are not going to help our cause.



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 17, 2007

Ken,

u bring up a interesting way to look at, but since Sports illustrated says over 60 % of Div I football teams are losing money it doesnt matter how many fans per capita each scholarship player at, for example, Kent St is putting in the stands for home games--- its still a $$$ loser per capita.

very very few Div I colleges are able to charge anywhere near what Ohio st U gets for a football ticket too.



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on July 17, 2007

Hank:

Your thoughts on how the weight cutting affects wrestling show great insight into the major problem with wrestling (especially college wrestling).

Having had experience with the problems of extreme weight cutting in college, I can assure you that your evaluations are almost prophesy. I have never understood why a wrestler would weekly (or every couple of days) lose 10-12% of their natural conditioned body weight and think that they could be competitive with great wrestlers who only lose a small amount of weight. This weight cutting over a season has to be playing havoc with their health and affecting their studies. Many times I have seen wrestlers who cut way too much weight and will look like world champions in one match and then in the next match, sometimes against inferior competition, look weak and lose. I have also seen wrestlers move up one or two weight classes and compete as well or better than they had at a weight they were heavily cutting to make. The 4-5 year toll of the cutting causes a great percentage of the college wrestlers to burn out or become defensive in their wrestling tactics. This causes many of the matches to be boring and effects the appeal of wrestling to the fans. Other than the top wrestlers you will see most wrestlers become inconsistent in their performance.

Some people in wrestling have suggested a matside weigh-in (in wrestling attire) before each match. I think this would be a good move for wrestling and could lead to less weight cutting.



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on July 17, 2007

KRsr--You're a lot more experienced in the realm of college wrestling than I am so to have you concur is gratifying. The Soviet/Russian wrestlers always thought we were idiots for trying to slim down rather than lift up to the next weight class. Why wouldn't we follow the philosophy of the most successful wrestlers in the world?

Hard core wt cutting is a major part of American wrestling culture. Rare is the wrestler that combines hard work with sensible eating to find an appropriate weight class. And, of course, there's the pressure to drop a wt if that's the only way to make the lineup. I have no idea what the answer is but perhaps matside weigh-ins would help.



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on July 18, 2007

Bob:

I agree with you that football gets way too many scholarships, but do you really think 60% of D1 teams are losing money? With the amount of fans supporting football teams and the cost of tickets to attend a game, I find that very hard to believe. When you factor in advertising, alumni contributions, donations from supporters, athletic department endorsements, television/radio income and income from corporate suites, you have a huge income. Plus, football is like most large businesses in that they always over spend their budget, because they know from history that the money is always there to support them. If this were not true, you would see colleges shut down their football programs. It is interesting to me though, that if Title IX was really interested in fairness they would cut the football participation to help meet the male to female proportions they seek. Instead they are completely destroying many of the minor sports that affect large numbers of athletes.



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 18, 2007

Ken posts: "I agree with you that football gets way too many scholarships, but do you really think 60% of D1 teams are losing money?" ---yes i do.

" With the amount of fans supporting football teams and the cost of tickets to attend a game, I find that very hard to believe." --- few colleges can charge anywhere near what Ohio St gets for a ticket, even Michigan doesnt charge that much. What do the Kents and Ohio U's and East Carolina's and C Michigans charge ? not much i am guessing.

"When you factor in advertising, alumni contributions, donations from supporters, athletic department endorsements, television/radio income and income from corporate suites, you have a huge income." ------ corporate suites at Kent ? few listens to radio broadcast of many of these teams anyway, how big could a contract be ? alumni contributions ? i don't think that can be hung on football, some teams may cost the college contributions even ??? imagine what it costs to have dinner table every evening for an entire football team, medical assistance---- travel cost for the 45-50 or so man travel team have to be enormous.

Tutors, the value of tuition room, and board for all these guys, it adds up. i bet the premiums on disability and death insurance the college must carry is enormous !!


And college stadiums don't operate for free, think about what it costs to maintain a stadium for football usage.

and then you have the entire salary structure of the organization that exists for football: coaches, trainers, the asst AD, the SID, secretaries, bus drivers, groundskeepers. AND how about the cost of all the equipment and the indoor practice facility teams have nowadays ?



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Mike Vash added to this discussion on July 18, 2007

Just chiming in with a few football facts I know.Yes Ohio State makes a ton of money off football but alot of the smaller ones don't.At Tennessee-Chattanooga which is div 1 in wrestling and 1aa in football the football team lost about 500,000 a year.They had I think 11 coaches who all made much more then the head wrestling coach.At 1aa I believe they have 75 scollies instead of the 85 of div 1.When you factor in the coaches salaries and bennies the support staff with football recruiting budget etc you are left with a loss.Now Im sure all the sec big ten etc make money but I went to akron and kent for games this year and I guarantee they didnt have 15000 at the game,but football has the prestige and to be a major player in the college sports game they will always have football no matter what the cost.



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Discussion Topic: Oregon dropping wrestling!
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 18, 2007

good points Mike--- nice to hear from you--- with all i mentioned i actually forgot a big expense that you mentioned: the off-season "football recruiting budget"--- those recruits just don't walk in the door and sign a letter of intent, coaches have to do alot of traveling and hosting campus paid visits to get these 75 to 85 guys to sign.

bottom line: football is an enormous expense even at lesser college programs than the Ohio state's of the world.



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