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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Dan Ransick added to this discussion on January 18, 2009
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With Lakewood Saint Edwards losing at the DI state duals this year to Wadsworth and them losing at Medina to Massillon Perry is this the end for Eds for a while? I am firm believe that all things run in cycles and St. Eds cycle looks to be ending as the dominant team in DI.
There appears to be no big names coming in as freshman. The last big name freshmen that came in for St. Eds are now juniors. After next year who will be the big point scorers for St. Eds? They lose Palmer this year and next year Sulzer, Clark and Sako all are gone who will replace them. Along with the talent pipeline drying up the coaching staff is not getting any younger.
So if St. Eds is no longer the top team in Division I who will be the dominant force? Will it be Wadsworth who is just insanely deep with sophomores and freshman coming in. Does Perry have the scoring power this year to be crowned state champions?
If Eds is to win it will be this year as next year Wadsworth will be a year older and more mature.
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Erik Nell added to this discussion on January 18, 2009
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Teams like Wadsworth and Perry go on streaks. I think St. Ed's will be fine, they have stood the test of time in a talent rich region of the state.
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Dan Ransick added to this discussion on January 18, 2009
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Yes I do agree that Wadsworth and Perry go on streaks since they are public schools. My question is does Eds have anyone coming in the pipes to keep the tradition going over the next few years?
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on January 18, 2009
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I don't think any public school can really achieve dynasty status just based on the system. Graham is obviously an exception, but that is an anomaly and there is a great confluence of circumstances that allow for Graham to do what they do.
Wadsworth will be disgustinly good next year, though. They graduate Snodgrass (160), Danny Foore, and Alex Grey (119). They will still have both Squires, Nate Ball, Busson, Randolph, Tavanello, Buzzelli, etc. I see them taking the title next year.
I would argue the point about the freshman class. This year's is extremely good. Last year's wasn't, and the best, Brandon DeLorge, transfered back to Avon. This year's 9th graders include the excellent Van Curen, Geoff Toney, Greg Kuhar, and Mark Martin, who is behind Sako and Clark. They will be very good in a couple of years.
I don't, however, see Ed's ever reaching the level we have seen them reach at times this decade. There are too many schools whose youth programs are really coming around. I think a lot more kids are seeing their public schools as an option. Ten years ago, you didn't see kids like Nick Lawrence staying in a Westlake program that has very little history and is about 10-15 minutes away from Ed's. The rise of Brecksville may also hurt them. Dan and I were talking one day, and what does it say that Mike Pucillo, who is from Strongsville, went to Walsh instead of Ed's, which is closer.
I also wonder about the health of the Westshore feeder program. Will Guy Sako stay as involved now that Gus is heading to college soon?
And what about the coaching situation? Is there anybody to wrestle with these kids? I was told by friends who wrestled there that Hef doesn't anymore (and this was a few years ago). They could really use some young alumni in the room. Looking through the state duals program, it seemed like almost every program had a younger alum, even if it was a kid who didn't go to that school, on the coaching staff. Ed's was the one exception.
While I see this program taking steps back, I don't see anybody who would supplant them as a dynasty. Maybe we will see yearly team races in DI?
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Anthony Windsor II added to this discussion on January 19, 2009
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Ed's is just having a minor set back for the next year or two.
Don't forget that they are still one of the best in the nation...
And I even though they may have lost the dual, there is still one little thing called the State Tournament that they can still win before we call it an end of an era (a very very very long era)
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 19, 2009
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Pucillo wrestled for Walsh when Eds was the best team in the country. He just liked the Walsh staff better.
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 19, 2009
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from PatC: "Dan and I were talking one day, and what does it say that Mike Pucillo, who is from Strongsville, went to Walsh instead of Ed's, which is closer."
-------from BobP: an insignificant occurence, in that Pucillo bonded with Bill Barger, its like Hank said he prefered Walsh Jesuit who themselves have had their share of glory in the past too.
from PatC: "And what about the coaching situation? Is there anybody to wrestle with these kids? I was told by friends who wrestled there that Hef doesn't anymore (and this was a few years ago). They could really use some young alumni in the room."
------from BobP: this is old news and yes this is significant, st Eds is trying to remedy the matter. They know it too.
from PatC: "While I see this program taking steps back, I don't see anybody who would supplant them as a dynasty. Maybe we will see yearly team races in DI?"
------From BobP: Dynasties don't come often. After all st Eds has had a 30 year dynasty, the odds of staying at that extremely high level are diminishing.
from BobP:
*****To create a DYNASTY certain factors have to come together, its like
The Perfect Storm
. i have studied and documented those factors in my work nationally over the past 2 decades. There are COMMON DENOMINATORS in every Dynasty-- its pretty much the same, too, regardless of the sport. i may write a book on it someday.
I don't see those factors anywhere right now except SPG and Blair--
and maybe Apple Valley Minnesota-- and just possibly could happen in Iowa City West, too, but they are a ways off, AV is on the verge.
i have been saying this for many years, theres just not as much talent in Cuyahoga County, and nearby to Cuyahoga County, as used to be 15, 20, 30 years ago when besides truly great st Eds teams there were very good teams at N Olmsted, Maple Heights, Nordonia, Lake Catholic, St Ignatius, Fairview Park, Walsh Jesuit and St Joes.
WalshJ & St I are coming back some, but where are those other once strong programs now ?????
Fact is, we've lost alot of good feeder programs up here.
st Eds had a good incoming freshman class this past Fall,
but the sophomore class of the year before was a killer, nothing came in
that can compete with the likes of SPG, Blair or even Mass Perry and Wadsworth.
So right now it would be easy to say st Eds is on the downslide, BUT they do have truly great tradition there and coaches who know what it takes to produce champions, so i'm not writing them off.
BUT its gonna take a real effort for st Eds to keep up with the likes of SPG and Blair, who have been their rivals the past decade.
Can they do it ? i think they can, but they need to put pedal to the medal.
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 19, 2009
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Bob: I agree with your points on the decline of wresting in Cuyahoga County. Look at the public schools. Name one in Cuyahoga county that's really good--Brecksville...maybe Mayfield. Maple? (They're an imitation of the great squads they used to put on the mat). None of these teams have the type of tough lineups top to bottom that were more common 20 years ago.
What I can't figure out is why so many schools that have competitive youth programs are so average at the high school level. Maybe it's just that the public schools which lack open enrollment are at a significant competitive disadvantage. Or maybe there's a disconnect between the youth competitors and their high school staffs.
I used to go to the Mentor District and just shake my head at the number of quality kids from the Cleveland area that wouldn't make state. Now, the same public programs that always had 6-8 good kids in their lineup might have 1-2.
I just don't think there are as many good kids left for Eds to attract.
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 19, 2009
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"I just don't think there are as many good kids left for Eds to attract."
right u r, Hank, i agree. BUT u got to look to
the Y's and CYO's that produced standout wrestlers
, indiv school programs don't do that like Y's and CYO do. Its at the Y's and CYO's where a kid learns by wrestling with many other commited kids from all over and learns under some great teachers, like coaches Coghill and Hunter and Mariola and Larry Kenyon.
Look at
the once GREAT youth programs
-- i mean GREAT-- that do not flourish anymore but did 15, 20, 30, 40 years ago in Cuyahoga County or nearby:
.... E Cleveland Y produced NCAA champions, like Shawn Garrel of Oklahoma-- and did Lee Kemp train at E Cleveland Y too ?? i think he did.
....Longwood Y produced
many many studs that went to Nordonia esp
, plus Alan Fried, and the likes of Joey O'Neill who went to Walsh J.
...St Richards in N Olmsted produced the Heffernan brothers, Bubba Strauss, Joe McFarland, the Tusicks -- some went to st Eds PLUS provided enough talent to fill N Olmsted's lineup when they were a great program under coaches Peters and Tom Milkovich.
...West Side Y, which actually was on the east side, run by coach Hunter, produced alot of talent esp for Cleveland st Joe's and their great coach John Story.
..W Shore Y which Howard Ferguson ran, now under coach Sako still pumps out alot of talent.
...even the famed N Akron Y in Summit County which built the Walsh Jesuit dynasty of the early and mid 90s, N Akron not what it used to be either. Used to produce the likes of Harry Lester-- thats the first place i saw Harry-- and
countless other big names
, many but not all, went to Walsh J.
and the Cuyahoga County CYO league is not as strong as once was, so add it up. i've talked myself blue to PatG and some old timers about this, he like many others is in denial. Theres alot of reasons, one is the Counties population has dropped from 2 million in 1970 to 1.3 million today (under the controlling Dem party i might add, so plenty of blame to go around, both parties let America down, imo)
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on January 20, 2009
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First, I would like to say that winning Medina and winning a dual is a far cry from winning a state title which I believe St. Edward will do this year and next.
Second, the downward turn in quality of wrestling in Northeast Ohio that you guys have been lamenting about is a result of the character, guts, and work ethic of a majority of kids these days. That may sound cynical, but that is a fact, kids today are looking for quicker gratification than wrestling can give them and their parents are not much better. Most of us know it, kids are just not as tough as they used to be, it is that simple.
Lastly, as a lifelong resident of Central Ohio, I would like to say that Cuyahoga County's losses in population may have been unavoidable (sorry Bob, it may not be either parties fault) as many companies looked to move to a more central location in the state. Columbus and Central Ohio has boomed in population in the last decade. Apparently Bob's scenario that the population loss in Northeast Ohio has something to do with the drop in overall quality of wrestling there could hold water because we are seeing unprecedented growth in the sport in the Columbus area. Traditional programs like Ready and DeSales are down (which has more to do with the failing economy than anything else as DeSales continues to train a lot of the kids that wrestle for other public programs,) but programs like Reynoldsburg, Canal Winchester, Central Crossing, and the Hilliards are on the rise as well as some other programs that are starting to scratch the surface like Heath, a resurgent Licking Heights., and the Pickeringtons. It will be a while before any of these teams can compete with the big dogs for a team state title, but their wrestlers will help to determine who does win a title. Wadsworth and Perry need to become Central Crossing and Reynoldsburg fans if they hope to knock of St. Edward.
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Joe Boardwine added to this discussion on January 20, 2009
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Excuse the long response. This is a great topic.
Has there been a decline of wrestling talent in Cuyahoga County? I’d like to read folks’ opinions on that topic and also disconnect that Hank K. pointed out between youth programs and high school varsity programs. I have a few Longwood stories to share as well.
Upon returning to NE Ohio and observing wrestling, I have a few thoughts on the topic. First, I think it is important to note that 25-30 years ago, my hometown (Streetsboro) and all of the other suburban and rural communities – really none of them had a youth wrestling program. Bob P is correct that all of the youth programs were essentially Y, CYO and a handful of tough club teams.
In elementary school during "sharing time" I brought in a wrestling trophy once and no one in the class had any idea what I was talking about. A few kids thought I was in something like the WWE.
Later, some communities with really committed coaches, started their own youth programs at places like Aurora, Solon, etc. But when clubs like ours (Longwood YMCA) ran into them at tournaments, we would usually pin those kids within the first minute.
It is disturbing to go and watch the youth leagues in our area that all compete in the Firestone league. The reason I say this is there seems to be no carry over to the varsity level. Not naming any teams, but I’ll see a community with a huge youth program full of kids – and often it has been that way for many years. But when you watch that same community’s varsity team at the h.s. level, half their kids can’t execute basic techniques and they have forfeits. Are these really the same kids that wrestled in the youth? They definitely don’t look like they have been wrestling for 7-10 years.
Now, these teams usually have a couple of very good kids too, but very little depth. What happens to all these youth wrestlers? Do they end their careers in 6th, 7th or 8th grade? What is the point of having 60 kids in the youth program and only 15 on the high school varsity? In the old days in the Cleveland area that you talking about, it was the opposite – there would be 60 kids on the varsity high school team and maybe a handful of them, perhaps 10-15 had youth wrestling at the Y’s, CYO’s ,etc. Making varsity was a big deal and kids were willing to be on the freshmen, then JV squads to work their way up to varsity.
In my view, the other big change with the youth programs is the way they are conducted relative to the old programs. The community programs, perhaps rightly so, are set up to be accommodating and make the sport for everybody. They are recreational in nature and designed to accommodate most everyone.
This is very different from the old Y and CYO programs – which were run more like intense boxing clubs or martial arts programs. At Longwood for example, it really was NOT a club for everyone. It wasn’t even run like a YOUTH program. They treated us like high school kids. I used to get brutalized every single practice. They made us do more conditioning than any of the teams I was a part of until my D I college experience. We would do sets of 100 push-ups, endless sprints and other exercises to build strength and toughness. Alan Fried and I talked about this a few years back when he was helping some of my kids out while I was coaching at U.S. We were laughing at just how much work we really did - and people wouldn’t believe it if you told them.
If a kid came to practice and started crying, the coaches would tell him to stop. If he couldn’t stop crying, they would ask his parents to bring him back later when he was “ready”. That might not be until next year. They didn’t alter the training for a kid; the boy had to adjust to fit the program. I remember just in my weight class one year we had at least 5-6 kids who eventually became state champions. I would beat some of them and then eventually get killed by the older kids and not make “varsity”. I figured I was not a very good wrestler and never thought I would be a state champion. These programs attracted hard-nosed kids, who could take the punishment and they were from all over NE Ohio. They had nothing in their local communities – like us at Streetsboro.
Our coaches expected us to listen to them in matches… if you tried to do it your own way, they might literally throw in the towel during your match and you would forfeit. The only reason a lot of us stayed in the sport was the fact that if we ever did get into a match, like at a local tournament, we would destroy “normal” kids who were starting the sport and were a part of the new youth clubs at Aurora, Solon, etc.
I think Bob’s points about the declining population in Cuyahoga County are very relevant as this is a definite factor – and is related to our struggling economy and schools. A lot of former Clevelanders who know great wrestling teach and coach in Columbus and out-of-state now.
I would like to get others’ thoughts on the state of our youth programs. Have you also noticed the lack of “carry-over” to the high school level? What should be done about it?
Part of my theory with this is that a normal kid (i.e. not David Taylor, not Alan Fried) can only care A LOT about winning and losing in a brutal sport like wrestling for 7-10 years or so. So, you pick your years. That can be K-7th or it can be 5th-12th grade. Maybe we should encourage kids to start a little later. But, when they do start– they go very hard, very intense, with the top techniques from the get-go. Perhaps we have softened the sport too much to make it palatable for a Kindergartener?
If we did so, maybe we would have more full teams again? I think that would be great for the sport.
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 20, 2009
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keen comprehensive analyisis Joe-- btw, where are you living now ?
bottom line, the Y and CYO programs were for kids who take the sport seriously, while the community programs are often more "recreational"--- we need to get our Y and CYO programs back up to speed in the Cleveland area to regain what we've lost. In the absence of that we need clubs.
What Eric Burnett is doing in Elyria with his highly renowned club is very important work, Cleveland needs that type thing too.
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on January 20, 2009
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I've seen 2 worlds of wrestling over the last 15 years. Growing up in Ohio, I believe I was raised in the greatest wrestling state there is. Getting to roll around with the likes of Ty Morgan, Andy Hrovat, and Jack Nutter along with Nick and Neal has taught me more than I could have ever imagined. however, one thing we as a state missed is how to draw in the fans. Here in eastern Iowa, things are different. At the high school I help coach at, the wrestling team brings in more fans than the basket ball team. Now, this is not common place, but it does show the love of the sport Iowans have. Virtually every team has cheerleaders. Teams get their pep band to play at a match. They've turned it into somewhat of a production. Wrestling is not boring to watch for them because they have external things keeping the crowd into it. Young athletes want to be in the spotlight, and right now wrestling doesn't provide the big enough stage for them. Sad, but it is all about them these days.
I sat perplexed at the fact my alma mater only had 18 kids go out for the sport this year. 15 years ago we had almost twice that amount. Currently, they only have 8 on varsity. My junior year we sent almost that number to the state tournament. How far that program has fallen in such a short time. A sign of the times. Like I said, I feel we need to turn our duals into a little more of a production for the fans. We need to help them love our sport like we do. That will generate interest, that will encourage participation, and hopefully that will raise the level of competition.
Just my opinion through my observations.
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 20, 2009
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"Like I said, I feel we need to turn our duals into a little more of a production for the fans. We need to help them love our sport like we do. That will generate interest, that will encourage participation, and hopefully that will raise the level of competition."
-----------------------------------------------
Mike,
this has been discussed often over the years on forums, the era of the dual is pretty much dead in many areas of Ohio because, as Hank Kornblut points out, few teams have the depth to field full teams, and there are few good teams. Fans don't show up to see forfeits and slaughters.
Iowa, a rural state, i would guess some of their love of duals has to do with
community spirit
, where u find community spirit the dual is still healthy. Iowa is a state of small and medium size towns where community spirit thrives. A different culture.
Ohio is a state of many big cities/suburbs -- unlike Iowa-- and big cities are drunk with Pro sports. Iowa has no MLB, NBA, NHL or NFL distractions. None.
Look at the Plain Dealer coverage, pro sports, pro sports, pro sports ad nauseum. Its cheaper to cover the pros, just pull the story off the AP wire. Reporters are expensive to send out to a high school event. PD high school coverage is very poor. ----And yet the PD wins the "best sports page" category every year in Ohio in the large newspaper category --- so i can imagine what other big cities high school coverage is like.
We cant order "community spirit" to happen, it has to be there. I don't know how can make someone love wrestling, its alot of work, either a kid wants it or he doesnt. Maybe Ohio has too many spoiled suburban kids and kids from broken homes??? i'm on record as feeling my generation and the current generation of parents in many cases spoiled their kids.
And cannot just say, let's make duals more important, it is what it is. Fact is Tournaments are important in Ohio because they bring the best kids together and forfeits/mismatches are not a problem. Fans love it and alot of coaches love it, too.
Hall of Famer Mike Milkovich said 40 years ago in an article, to paraphrase him:
" We are in the entertainment business, we have to entertain fans."
Bobby Douglas has said the same thing. They knew it, but like everything in life its easier said than done.
Its all been often discussed on this and other Ohio forums, if a solution is truly available why no change ?? ----- i say form more clubs, reinvigorate the Y's and CYO's that once churned out talented kids, thats a good first step--- and the commited kids will take advantage of it, while the others will go where they are going anyway: home to the computer, the couch or to the Mall.
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Discussion Topic: End of an era?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 20, 2009
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Joe: It seems that there is a difference between most community based youth programs--those that serve primarily one school system--and those that might be characterized as larger in scope--often affiliated with a Y in the Cleveland area. The obvious difference from your description is that the coaches that ran Longwood were serious about producing good wrestlers--as opposed to merely getting the kids involved. I think that many of those running community programs feel that if they can make it fun then eventually these kids will become serious about wrestling. That philosophy doesn't seem to be working. It seems that if you don't insist on hard work then the kids aren't prepared for it at a later date either. I don't think kindergarteners should be running wind sprints. But by the time they're 10, kids need to come to practice and actually put in some solid sweat equity.
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