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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 26, 2009
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Do you continue with Johnstone, who looked good early in the year but has been unable to beat the better caliber kids at the weight class?
Or do you turn the spot over to Nemec, your future starter at this weight, and a wrestler that is currently on the clock?
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on January 26, 2009
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Let them wrestle-off and hope the best wrestler wins. I think both are awesome.
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Mark Viviani added to this discussion on January 26, 2009
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I think that if Johnstone and Nemec are even (pretty much the word out there) that Johnstone should continue to be the starter. I think that Johnstone has done everything asked of him in his career at OSU and the coaches should show some loyalty and let him continue to start.
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 26, 2009
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Tough position for a coach.
Do you reward the guy who is reliable and does everything that you ask but struggles against the top guys or do you put in the young guy who is young and hungry (six feet tall, bulletproof and does not respect the name)
On one hand, you risk permanently damaging one of your reliable guys that puts everything he has into his wrestling but lacks the horsepower to give a young guy with a perceived brighter future a crack at his first NCAA tournament.
This dynamic does play out in every program sooner or later and every coach has to deal with it. Hellickson dealt with it in the form of Jeff Bucher and Dom DiSabato. I know what Hellickson did. He sat the young guy (Bucher) who could not beat an experienced guy (Dom) during wrestle-offs. Hellickson wanted to give Bucher the chance to wrestle at the Big Tens but Russ was an honorable guy and you had to win the wrestle-off. The following year Bucher was a quarterfinalist at the NCAA tournament but failed to place. BTW Dom did not qualify that year.
I have a pretty good idea what Tom Brands would do.
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on January 26, 2009
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When they competed in the same tournaments, didn't Johnstone have better results? Also, Johnstone is ranked 15th on the latest InterMat rankings, so by this logic he would be a point scorer at nationals.
Is he an AA? Who knows, with the right draw he could be. However, he is more a sure-fire point scorer at nationals than Nemec.
My coaching thought is (oh, and I'm not a coach. Go figure) if you're going to be average or bad, be average or bad with youth, with progress being the goal. However, Johnstone has been better than average.
My two cents.
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on January 27, 2009
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Tough position for a coach.
Do you reward the guy who is reliable and does everything that you ask but struggles against the top guys or do you put in the young guy who is young and hungry (six feet tall, bulletproof and does not respect the name)
On one hand, you risk permanently damaging one of your reliable guys that puts everything he has into his wrestling but lacks the horsepower to give a young guy with a perceived brighter future a crack at his first NCAA tournament.
This dynamic does play out in every program sooner or later and every coach has to deal with it. Hellickson dealt with it in the form of Jeff Bucher and Dom DiSabato. I know what Hellickson did. He sat the young guy (Bucher) who could not beat an experienced guy (Dom) during wrestle-offs. Hellickson wanted to give Bucher the chance to wrestle at the Big Tens but Russ was an honorable guy and you had to win the wrestle-off. The following year Bucher was a quarterfinalist at the NCAA tournament but failed to place. BTW Dom did not qualify that year.
I have a pretty good idea what Tom Brands would do."
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Are you saying this because of what happened to Terry their freshman year? From what I understand, Daniel Dennis has beaten Joe Slaton consistently in practice, but Slaton was seen to be a "gamer" by Tom. Thus the reason Slaton was starting over Dennis earlier this year despite losing to him in wrestle offs. From that, it sounds to me that Coach Hellickson and Tom Brands approach the same issue from different points of view. Do you agree w/ me on this Rex, or have you seen something else?
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 27, 2009
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Mike-
Sort of. I was not specifically thinking about Terry Brands. Each person is a cumulation of their experience and it directly affects their thinking. As a coach, the situation we are talking about will arise. Brands had prior experience in the form of his brother as well as other similar situations which he observed while at Iowa or Team USA for that matter.
The true nature of competition is survival of the fittest. Goodwill, sportsmanship, and character may arise from competition but they are not the underlying goal. The goal is to compete at the highest level and consequently win.
Brands understands this matter and consequently Iowa has risen again as the team who sets the bar high....very high.
When I say Hellickson is an honorable guy, this is just an explanantion of how he went about things and his coaching philosophy. He spent thirty years as a coach and had some excellent seasons as well as some lousy ones. He put individuals before the team. This is not meant as a slight in any manner, it is just a matter of coaching philosophy. Putting individual before the team can be a costly matter.
Based upon Slaton/Dennis situation, I think it is fair to say that Brands puts the team before the individual. Is it a matter of gamesmanship, partly. Also, it is part hidden dynamic. A sixth sense as to who will get the job done when it counts. Some wrestlers are ready for big things, some are not quite there and need more adjustments, some may get it done if a little luck goes their way and some will never get it done. It's just the way it is. As a coach, if you know this, then you can act on it.
Yes, Jason Johnstone is an above average wrestler with great skills. He had an excellent Big Ten tourney after a lackluster regular season last year which is indicative that he may do it again this year. Nemec is a stud with great potential. Picking the right guy to represent at the Big Tens and NCAA tournament is huge.
When I say right guy, I am talking about the one who will score points and represent for what you are striving.
You cannot talk in terms of certainties rather probabilities as there are no sure things. This is a gray area with a lot of repercussions with either choice. That is why I say it is a tough decision.
Of note, if you are winning, then no one is second guessing you. Last time I checked, Brands is winning.
I hope that clarifies it. If not, I will break it down some more.
Football is a different dynamic. Boeckman and Pryor. Same situation of youth and potential versus a solid veteran performer. Both guys get to play in the Bowl game. Get time on National TV.
In wrestling there is one prize and that is the post season Big Ten and NCAA tournaments.
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 27, 2009
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"When they competed in the same tournaments, didn't Johnstone have better results? Also, Johnstone is ranked 15th on the latest InterMat rankings, so by this logic he would be a point scorer at nationals.
Is he an AA? Who knows, with the right draw he could be. However, he is more a sure-fire point scorer at nationals than Nemec.
My coaching thought is (oh, and I'm not a coach. Go figure) if you're going to be average or bad, be average or bad with youth, with progress being the goal. However, Johnstone has been better than average.
My two cents."
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Ethan-
I don't agree with the sure fire point scorer at Nationals than Nemec statement.Let me qualify. I would say Pucillo and Palmer were. There is quite a bit of uncertainty around the matter at 157.
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 27, 2009
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I'm glad some have been willing to tackle this topic.
My two cents--Johnstone has been at 157 for three seasons and it's pretty clear what he can and can't do. He's always been at a competitive disadvantage at this weight class because he lacks sheer power. He's often been able to use his tremendous skills as a tactician and technician to compensate but not against the more physical guys. Johnstone beat Bonilla-Bowman last season but got man-handled on Sunday. Bonilla-Bowman is a longshot to AA. Johnstone has been struggling since the early portion of the season when all the Buckeyes got fat on lesser level competition.
Nemec represents the future at this weight class for Ohio State. But he has not been a lights out talent since arriving in Columbus. I don't expect that he would outperform Johnstone if inserted in the lineup. Still, if he gets more experience this season, it's likely he'd be a better performer next year. I think Nemec needs opportunities against the best guys and he's not going to get them at the CSU opens.
It's a quandary. Do you give the young guy a shot so he can get more prepared for the future? Or do you leave in your veteran who is more of a known quantity--and a bit more likely to score you a few points at nationals?
None of this takes into account room dynamics. Coach Ryan and staff have to consider how yanking a dedicated starter from the lineup would affect team morale. Would this type of move divide the squad? Or is it a situation where the coach would have to do what he thought was best and simply tell the team to accept it?
FWIW--I don't expect Ohio State to make a change. I think that it's more important to their "end game" to have their best potential scorer in the lineup at the end of the season.
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 27, 2009
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I think the Buckeyes could get "hot" with a brutally tough line up that started at Hump. I think the Buckeyes could get upward of 7 AAs this year if Nemec was indeed ready for the Big Show. It would be fun to see 7 Buckeyes in the quarters at NCAAs with 5 advancing to the semis.
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 27, 2009
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Two other things to consider. Did Palmer beat Johnstone in their wrestle-off Palmer's freshman year. Lance did get a season of experience under his belt prior to Big Tens and Nationals.
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Gary Corroto added to this discussion on January 27, 2009
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It is so hard for us as fans to analyze or assess these situations. It's easy to have that "grass is always greener" mentality. When a wrestler goes through a tough stretch we as fans immediately start to look for the next big thing and often times we assume that another wrestler is the better option. The problem is we only see small snippets of the back up wrestler. We are not privy to the big picture. We don't see these guys wrestle everyday and prepare to wrestle everyday. I know that Jason and Sean are both very talented wrestlers. I have no clue which one should be in the lineup. None of us do, becuase we don't see enough of both of them.
This staff is made up of dedicated straightforward men that have a great deal of compassion for the men they coach, but who put the interest of the team first. I know that their goal is to win a team national championship this year. They are going to put the 10 wrestlers on the mat that they feel gives them the best chance to win this year regardless of class.
I have to assume that based upon all of the things that the staff sees on a day-to-day basis right now Jason gives the team the best chance to win. [/u][/b]
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 27, 2009
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Gary-
I am with you as far as the coaching staff pouring over this issue and considering it and going with Johnstone as they see him as the stronger candidate for post season success.
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Mike Hojnacki added to this discussion on January 27, 2009
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I agree with most of what has been said. Johnstone is the veteran and he has wrestled most (if not all) of the top guys this year. I'm just thinking from a coaching perspective, the OSU staff knows what Jason needs to work on for each of those individual opponents. Whereas, if they put Nemec in, he hasn't wrestled those guys and would have a disadvantage in terms of strategy.
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Discussion Topic: Let's revisit a topic: OSU 157
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 27, 2009
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This topic is very interesting.
Let me give a slightly different scenario.
Arizona State 1990 - Bobby Douglas starts Wayne McMinn over Andy McNaughten. McNaughten won the end of the year wrestle-off but was slowed by a sprained ankle prior to the wrestle-off. McNaughten had been "on" all year as he won Vegas and the Midlands. Wayne steps in and finishes as an AA, Andy is forced to sit out by Coach Douglas. It was actually a fairly brilliant move, as he knew McNaughten could not compete through two big tournaments with the ankle.
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