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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 22, 2009
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"If you never ran a program, it's hard to explain. We're in the promotion biz but first it's all about attaining team goals."
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Hank, are u saying Ohio st wouldnt have won anyway with Pucillo wrestling 184 ?? u cant assume that at all.
Cook certainly could have beaten the Nwst 197. Morrison still would have won-- and Pucillo could have won too and given the fans the match they wanted.
u r making alot of assumptions-- i guess u and i disagree.
i know college wrestling has been in serious decline and these moves don't help.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on February 24, 2009
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Hindsight is 20:20.
I see Bob's point about it being good for the sport to have the undefeated returning national champion #1 Jake Herbert wrestle against the undefeated defending national champion #2 Mike Pucillo. But, Bob...
What if it was a one-sided match this time and it proved that one was just much better than the other? Wouldn't that greatly reduce the "image" of the Big Ten final and the possible national final, knowing that this match already happened and wasn't close? Or even if it was close, it already happened. Seeing a 3-2 decision that already happened twice (dual, conference tournament) would likely lose a bit of luster for the possible match-up in the national final. It's not the battle of undefeateds anymore, it's #1 versus #2.
Whoever loses at the Big Ten tournament will only be 0-1. He will have the revenge and underdog factors on his side at nationals. That works, PR-wise. If he's 0-2, it appears (to most people) that his opponent is just better than him and it loses some of that uber big-match hype.
PR value can be taken many ways, in this case.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 24, 2009
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well Dan, the first thing AWN editor
Ron Good emailed me was why was Pucillo
ducking
Herbert ?
?
Yes it was interpreted as ducking.
Ron Good said it messed up the match everyone in the nation was anticipating.
like i said, ive seen College coaches do this stuff for years, i don't like it, but thats just me i guess. College wrestling has been in big trouble for a variety of reasons,
some self inflicted
.
High school wrestling carries the load for the sport in America, the very best kids don't duck each other
. At the Ironman did Taylor or Logan Stieber or Jamie Clark duck each other several years ago, did Gardner from C-burg and Platt from Blair duck each other, did Collin Palmer and Alton duck each other, did Ed Ruth and Chris Phillips duck each other ???
At Ironman kids come from all over the nation to meet the best ! in fact # 2 ranked 171 at the time Ethan Lofthouse spent considerable money and time and effort to come all the way from Utah to challenge Chris Phillips & Ed Ruth.
thats why even with 2 gyms its SRO for even the rattail round at 1 PM Friday afternoon. College could learn alot from high school.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 24, 2009
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i got some more info from coach Ryan, re the Herbert vs Pucillo matchup that fans were disappointed didnt happen-- Ryan explains he needed 2 wins in the last 3 wts to win the dual, so moving up Pucillo to 197 seemed the surest way to go. We all knew that much.
something we didnt know, Northwestern won the coin toss and Ohio St had to take the mat first at 184
----- so Nwstn knew Pucillo was bumping up when he didnt come out at 184 and Nwstn could still have moved Herbert up to 197 to meet Pucillo.
Ohio st only had a unknown freshman from Alabama go at 184, so Nwstn could have sent a backup to wrestle 184 and moved Herbert up---- so theres more to it than meets the eye.
i'm convinced it wasnt intentional ducking by either school to avoid the anticipated big 184 matchup. Just how the dual worked out.
but now the big question. Who gets the No. 1 seed for the Big 10?
Pucillo is the defending champion and defending Big 10 champ, and undefeated. Don’t think they look at national rankings. The No. 1 seed of course, does not have to wrestle that horse Keddy in the semis.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on February 24, 2009
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Bob: Well, there you go.
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Here's my story--In 1996 my program (Shaker) was wrestling neighborhood rival Cleveland Heights in an LEL dual. Heights whipped us almost every year so beating them was a big deal. I worked out the matchups on paper and knew it would be close. After 171 (Ben Greenspan pinning highly regarded Jolon Martin), we were within striking distance of victory. Heights was up 29-24 and we expected to get a pin at 215 and a victory at 285. Basically, I needed my 189 not to get pinned. On paper it was a close matchup so I decided not to tell my 189 that his only job was to stay off his back. I figured it might undermine his confidence.
Well, my 189 was losing 4-1 in the third period and decided to lock up in an over/under. Before I could yell for him to get out of that tie up, he tried a throw--badly. Next thing I knew he was flat on his back. The ref called the pin seconds later.
Now, it was 35-24. My 215 pinned their worst wrestler and so we went into the 285 bout down 5 points. Both wrestlers were young but talented and the match was close. Then, with 40 seconds to go, my wrestler Aaron McMickle hit a kneepick and took young Ed Thomas to his back. If he could secure the pin, we'd win by one.
Long story short--Aaron wasn't in good position to get the fall and if he'd adjusted to get it, Thomas would have come off his back. So Aaron, who was very smart, stayed where he was. We both hoped Thomas would tire but he didn't. He kept one shoulder up for 40 seconds and the match ended. We lost the dual by two.
That was the closest I came to beating our arch rival in 8 seasons.
Now--who else cared about that dual? No one besides our two teams. But it meant a great deal to them and it was for bragging rights. And it was a conference dual which also meant something.
To this day I'm haunted by the fact I didn't tell my kid just to stay off his back. If I had, he might have been smart enough to do it. He basically pinned himself as there was no way that kid was going to do it.
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Tom Ryan had two choices against NW. First, play it straight and hope that Cook would win if Pucillo lost. Or, greatly increase the odds of victory by bumping Pucillo .
Now, consider the following: Ohio State had already blown a Big Ten dual against Minny. Instead of finishing undefeated and tied for first in the Big Ten, they'd slipped to second. That has to bother everyone on the team. And, do you really think Coach Ryan wanted to possibly lose to NW? If Pucillo and Cook lose, that's what happens.
Also, two years earlier, Ryan probably lost the Michigan dual when he made a terrible coaching decision that involved placing Corey Morrison on bottom in a match he was dominating on his feet. As a coach, you never forget these types of decisions.
Rankers, fans and wrestlers from across the nation may have wanted to see Pucillo v Herbert. I did too. But there's not a decent coach in the nation that wouldn't have made the same move. Winning the dual always takes precedence. Ryan made the smart play. Anyone who thinks that this was cowardly or "ducking" or whatever else...has no idea about the job of a coach in a dual. You win--period. Everytime and every way you can. As to individual matchups, that's the purpose of tournaments.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 24, 2009
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Hank,
well to me
the key element here was the NEW info, not previously known or discussed or factored in: that because of the coin toss Ohio st had to come out FIRST at 184.
this opens new possibilites. Now we know Nwstn could have chosen to have Herbert follow Pucillo up to 197, but they didnt. But I
do not know Nwstn's backup situation at 184, so i'm not taking sides.
On theMat.com college forum i'm geting ripped by anonomous Aliases for bringing this coin toss factor up. But hey thats typical theMat forums.
and now we know, Ohio st anticipated their options if the coin toss went against them. They weighed in two 184s.
Were there other motives by Ohio St U? i don't know and cant say.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Jack Muni added to this discussion on February 24, 2009
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"
but now the big question. Who gets the No. 1 seed for the Big 10?
Pucillo is the defending champion and defending Big 10 champ, and undefeated. Don’t think they look at national rankings. The No. 1 seed of course, does not have to wrestle that horse Keddy in the semis."
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I see Herbert barely beat Keddy 3-2 on Sunday. Keddy is that much tougher to beat the second or third time around. Mike & Jake both beat him handily the first time they wrestled, but after that it's been tough. I think Keddy could upset either one in the semis & no one would be surprised.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on February 25, 2009
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Bob: That "new info" is irrelevant. Winning the dual was what mattered. Ryan made the right move regardless.
Jack: I agree with you about Keddy. He's very tough. While everyone pays attention to Pucillo and Herbert, it's possible he's as good as both.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on February 25, 2009
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On Sunday, Tom came right out and said the reason for his decision was because "the team comes first." You can't fault a guy for trying to do right by his wrestlers who are giving it their all. He owed them the smartest coaching decision that would give them the best chance at a dual victory.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on February 25, 2009
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I think Ryan has a great obligation here to Pucillo, not the fans. Let's just say that Herbert beats him in a convincing decision, as he did at Ed's two years ago. If this repeats at B10s, then coming into the national finals, the match is all but over before it starts. As a coach, it is your obligation to protect your wrestler's psyche.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on February 25, 2009
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Mike: Agreed.
Pat: There's nothing to protect. Pucillo is an upper echelon collegiate competitor. He's not going to stop believing in himself even if he loses convincingly once or twice. In that case, the coaches and wrestlers make adjustments and develop a plan for next time and the time after, etc...
One final thought--If you look at results against similar competitors, you'll find that Pucillo, Herbert and Keddy have all performed around the same. Herbert's dismantling of Keddy earlier in the season was likely an aberration. The recent 3-2 match that Herbert won more accurately reflects this weight class. I think you'll find that these three guys are very close in ability and will all have tight matches amongst themselves for the rest of the season. And any of these three can win. Don't discount Keddy.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Ben Golden added to this discussion on February 25, 2009
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Herbert may have only beaten Keddy by a point, but I watched the match, and Herbert was never in any kind of danger at all. Basically, Keddy kept it close by using his strength and making sure most of the match was wrestled upper body. He only got to Herbert's leg once, and even then wasn't close to scoring. Herbert took him down in the first and came extemely close to taking him down again but they went out of bounds. I guess what I'm saying is that keeping it close and winning are very different things.
With that said, Herbert seemed to gas a little bit in the 3rd. I don't know how good of shape Pucillo is in, but that can't hurt his chances.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 25, 2009
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"Bob: That "new info" is irrelevant. Winning the dual was what mattered. Ryan made the right move regardless"
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Hank, i think its relevent info, it brings a couple different scenarios into play. Ryan had to be prepared for a couple of options, heres WHY:
..... the last 3 matches vs Nwstn were 184, 197, and 285.
.....
Ohio St did not know
whether they needed to win
all 3 or just 2 of the 3
, UNTIL they knew who won at 174. Rella only won in OT at 174.
.....at that time after Rella won, Ohio St knew they could win the dual by winning 2 of the last 3, so
they then had the option of moving Pucillo up a wt.
.....If Rella had lost his OT match, then Ohio St would have had to
win all 3 of the last 3 matches
.
And in that case Ohio st would have had to wrestle Pucillo at 184.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Mike Hojnacki added to this discussion on February 25, 2009
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If this repeats at B10s, then coming into the national finals, the match is all but over before it starts
Pat: I respectfully disagree. I believe Mark Perry was 0-6 against Hendricks and had never beaten him before he won his first national title. My opinion... Herbert and Pucillo are both big match wrestlers. When they meet (unless somebody spoils it i.e. Keddy), it is going to be a heck of a match, and I can't see either one of them giving up at any point in the match, let alone before it even starts.
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Discussion Topic: Mike Pucillo v. Jake Herbert?
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on February 25, 2009
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That was hyperbole... read as being a big mental edge.
Also, IMO, Hendricks wasn't nearly as good as Herbert is. I think of him as a 1x champ. If it isn't for Askren, Herbert wins 2 if not 3 titles. Didn't he beat Perry in the semis at NCAAs in 2006? Not really relevant, but just throught I would throw that out there.
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