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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 9, 2009
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The pattern this season has been up/down/up/down. Every time they seem to be on the right track, they have a setback. They looked good early then were horrendous in Vegas. They seemed to find themselves at National Duals but then had an embarrassing loss to an inferior Minny squad at home. They rebounded with a couple great weekends capped by a stunning dual victory over a quality Illinois squad. Then they seemed a bit less focused in wins over NW and Wiscy.
And then there were the Big Tens....
Four guys failed to win a single match.
How does a team with national title aspirations and a slogan--"Second is not the Standard"--have four guys so unprepared for battle at the end of the season? And three of these four had qualified their weight class for nationals.
Upsets happen but usually they balance. Palmer loses but Humphrey beats Dennis and Ness. Kind of like that.
But that wasn't the case for Ohio State. There was no balancing. Three wrestlers that had spent a lot of time ranked nationally lost to wrestlers they were expected to beat. It was the most disappointing performance by any squad at the Big Tens. And there's no point in mentioning 197. That young man needs a can of spinach and Olive Oyl in his corner.
Ohio State will send six very good wrestlers to nationals. The team should do well. But this coaching staff has a lot of soul searching to do.
1) Why did so many wrestlers struggle this year to remain consistent? Only Pucillo, Palmer, Sponseller and Humphrey seemed ready to go all the time.
2) Why aren't more wrestlers improving faster? Look at Iowa--the standard bearer. Chad Beatty goes from below average to a serious AA candidate. Dan Erekson went from a nothing 197 with a major shoulder problem to the hardest working 285 in the nation. Keddy was not very good his first year in the lineup; same for Morningstar. And all their backups can be counted on to give strong efforts. Iowa is going to win their second consecutive national title not just because of their stud recruits but because of their secondary ones as well. That's coaching.
Aren't Tom Ryan,Tom Rowlands, Joe Heskett and Lou Rosselli on this staff? That's three national titles, twelve AA honors and a lot of international competition between them. Can't they take the Garrett Henry's, Jared Kusars, Robel Campbells, Thomas Sanders, Sean Nemecs, Pat Harringtons and Bo Touris's and have them ahead of the curve by their second and third seasons? Tom Brands would; same for Tom Borelli...and so would Jim Andrassy.
3) Are we not recruiting well enough or not coaching well enough? Tom Ryan inherited a lot of quality wrestlers but "salary cap" issues and some big holes. As his third season winds down, it's hard to know what to think in some respects. Yes, this team is in better shape. He's added depth, got Ohio kids interested again in Ohio State and had some great national tourney finishes. I certainly think he's done his job well. But if greatness is the standard...and I think it is in his mind...well, there's still a lot of work to be done. More consistency, more improvement...that's where it starts.
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
Ben Golden added to this discussion on March 10, 2009
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I'm sure Ryan would agree with you on many of those points...
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on March 10, 2009
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Some things to consider. First, I believe Iowa has the consistency out of their starters because of the talent of their back ups (just like you said). However, I don't think we've got that yet. I don't know if our back up are as good as what they are at Iowa. That, itself, is a point that could be debated I suppose. When you have a back up that can knock off a NCAA runner up, you are forced to focus in the room or else be left behind. Who is there challenging Jaggers? Who is challenging Pucillo? Who is making Humphrey earn his keep every day? More importantly, who is nipping at Morrison's heels or Triggas or Johnstone? We need quality wrestlers serving in a "behind the scenes" role to keep our studs sharp and push our more inconsistent guys to emerge as one of our go to guys.
Second, I wonder how far we would want this team to go to be the best? Living just outside Iowa City, I've gotten to enjoy many a Hawkeye match these past 2 seasons. One thing I've noticed is they just don't seem to savor victory. They HATE losing, but they don't seem to enjoy winning to that same level. It's like the intensity Brands brings to the room has burned their nerve endings so they can't feel joy any longer in victory...only anger in defeat. Is that where we want our team? To beat Iowa, I almost think you would have to join them in their workmanlike mindset and thus remove much of the emotion most guys carry with them on the mat. Just an observation for consideration.
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 10, 2009
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Mike-
You bring up an interesting point regarding passion and it reflects Brand's methodology which was inherited/transformed/evolved (one word seems to fall very short of what it is) from Gable.
There is passion. Passion is passion. How you go about channeling and developing it is unique to Brands and his staff. Simply put, it is an us versus them mentality which does not reward winning rather outstanding and intense performance. Winning by itself accounts for a large scope of performances, which range from excellent to poor. An outstanding performance is the standard. This standard has set definitive parameters. You must wrestle through every situation intensely with no lapse in concentration and begin at a sprint and manitain or increase that pace for the remainder of the match. It is the ideal. Anything short of that is failure. Should you meet or come close to the ideal, that is your job and is the expectation. You may get a pat on the back and a "good job", but the win is nothing to focus on as it is the expectation and you simply met the expectation. Should you fall short of the ideal, you have a lot of work to do or maybe you should transfer to a different university
How you manage(coach) your athletes to think is the difference between where Iowa is and where the rest of the nation currently resides.
Hank-
The Bucks have historically underperformed at the Big Tens. They will have a much better NCAA tournament. I don't like to make statements regarding possible outcomes, but I think it is highly likely that the Buckeyes will finish as a team at the same or better (#6) in the nation as their Big Ten finish.
Now that the statement has been made about second not being the standard; the question becomes what does the standard become? Because in order to beat Iowa and be #1, then some things need to evolve at tOSU.
Brands is young and and he can keep this up for another twenty years.
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 10, 2009
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Mike--I agree that it takes time to build depth. Has Ohio State had enough time? Can't say I know for sure.
As to your comments about Iowa...I don't know what to say. Wrestling's hard and the kids that do it D1 in the Big Ten have to be part of something that makes them want to stick with it. They need to love their program and have faith in their staff. I think the Iowa guys feel that way. As to their reactions when they lose, it's childish at times.
My comments about Ohio State have to do with my expectations of a bonafide championship contender. I don't think that's what we've seen this season. Good program? Yes. Great? No. And maddeningly inconsistent for so much talent. I'm asking why and making a few observations from the "cheap seats."
I'd also add that it's important to recruit well but also to recruit smart. Everyone wants Jordan Oliver. He's going to win the second he steps on the mat. But Mizzou, Nebraska, and CMU among others seem to really coach up their kids when they hit the next level. Iowa State, by contrast, uses Cael's reputation to land great kids...and yet that program hasn't lived up to expectations given the talent they've brought in. Indeed they were outwrestled at Big Five's by a Nebraska squad that has had a remarkable season in spite of kicking three starters off the squad. I'd rather see Ohio State bring in more in-state talent and develop it then continually chase the #1 ranked kids from somewhere else. (my favorite recruit for this class is Nick Heflin because he's a steal). You'll lose out on a lot of them and then be behind to get the kids you could have gotten all along.
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
John Flanigan added to this discussion on March 10, 2009
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"
My comments about Ohio State have to do with my expectations of a bonafide championship contender. I don't think that's what we've seen this season. Good program? Yes. Great? No. And maddeningly inconsistent for so much talent. I'm asking why and making a few observations from the "cheap seats."
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Not to be offensive, so please do not take it this way, but maybe your expectations are too high. There was great excitement over the finish last year, the excellent dual record this year and the good individual performances, but these also need to be tempered with reality.
The reality is that Iowa is still king and it will take a lot to knock them off. I think that everyone who follows OSU wrestling even casually understands that they have some holes, both from some wrestlers not meeting expectations and from not have the highest caliber kids at other weights. (Not meant to offend any of these fine young men, because they are far more accomplushed than I ever was.) It will take a few years to really get a program in place to push Iowa and there may be a few steps backward before it can happen. Continued high finishes will make OSU a school of choice for wrestlers, as Iowa has enjoyed for decades.
There are individual details that we are not privy to as well. Maybe someone is hurt, but says nothing because they are hoping to achieve the dream of making it to the NCAAs. Maybe someone was sick and just did not have the energy to give it everything they had, but they were still hoping to achieve their dream. Maybe someone had a bad day. With very few exceptions, even the best do not always perform to the best of their abilities.
I hope that wasn't too rambling, but I do not have a lot of time to be more eloquent!
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on March 10, 2009
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Rex - Outstanding points regarding the Iowa mindset. I guess when you look at winning as the expectation vice the goal, there won't be a whole lot of emotion associated with it. I don't get excited when I show up for work on time. Same idea w/ them winning. I must admit, though, I enjoy watching the wrestlers on my favorite team show some emotion other than anger. I like to be able to see "my" wrestlers as people and not just athletes. Is it possible to perform at the level Iowa does consistently without turning the athletes into machine like wrestlers? I don't know.
Hank - I agree w/ your frustration over OSUs struggles given the talent they returned. However, addmittedly I'm not terribly surprised. I was wondering how this team would handle success. As many of us know, the only thing more difficult than handling adversity is handling success. I wonder where their heads were at throughout the year. Did they find themselves expecting their opponent to roll over for them at any point in the year? Unfortunately, sometimes the best and only thing a coach can do is let his team learn the hard way. I expect good things from this team in a couple of weeks. If you haven't heard the Tom Ryan interview following the Big Tens it is worth a listen. He quotes Woody Hayes in saying nothing cleanses a man's soul more than a good butt kicking. He followed that by saying a lot of our guys got a good soul cleansing this week. You can find that interview on buckeyewrestling.com. Good interviews of both Tom and Joe Heskett.
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
Roe Fox added to this discussion on March 10, 2009
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John:
I think you misunderstand Hank's point. He is only looking at the season through "Ryan colored glasses" due to comments made by the coach about the expectations. A few years ago most of us would have been excited about the results this year.
Ryan has set the bar high. You need to do that. He clearly hasn't met his expectations this year but it is only year three. Iowa will always be good but Brands brought in some top notch talent along with the usual Iowa talent that was already there. Even he couldn't fill 157 and for all his coaching talent he had severe underperformers at B10s in Dennis and Falck.
We have legitamate title contenders at four weights: 133, 141, 165 and 184. If he is healthy Palmer is five. And think about the mindset of these five guys: every bit as mentally tough as Iowa without the cheap shots and shoving out of bounds. All with big tanks and no quit. Nemec probably should have wrestled this year but I am glad he got a taste of it and Ryan is still sticking with the senior who paid his dues under both coaches.
They have two weeks to right a ship that quite frankly isn't necessarily sinking.
As far as how he is doing it, I think he is doing it the right way. Next year and the year after will be good years to see where they are in relation to Ryan's stated goal.
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on March 10, 2009
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I would add that Brands didn't have nearly as far to go when he took over as Ryan did - with regards to the 'Iowa mindset' and talent on the roster.
Plus, Ryan has had to rebuild the relationships with HS coaches throughout Ohio that had deteriorated under the previous regime.
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on March 10, 2009
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Quote from J.P. Barner's post:
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Plus, Ryan has had to rebuild the relationships with HS coaches throughout Ohio that had deteriorated under the previous regime."
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Hmm. Very interesting points here. When Gable coached at Iowa, he turned that program into the holy grail of college wrestling. You considered scholarships from most schools but ACCEPTED an offer from Iowa. With that came the immediate relationship to any high school coach in the country (I exaggerate but you get my point). Like you said, OSU hasn't been at that level and Tom Ryan has had to become the OSU salesman to the coaches in Ohio. He's had to convince them why OSU should be the choice of their wrestlers vice Okie St or ISU or Iowa. I like what I'm seeing from Ryan and think given a few more years OSU will turn in to the annual challenger for the Big Ten and national title like we hope they will be. Right now, we have a group of guys that are getting OSU recognized by Ohio boys. They are ensuring OSU is seen on the big stage and is attractive to recruits. Years down the road, we will be able to point to this group as the turning point in OSU wrestling. I truly believe they will serve as the foundation for great OSU teams. Perhaps I dilusional, but I think we are in for great things in the future.
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
Jack Muni added to this discussion on March 10, 2009
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Isn't Iowa still benefiting from the "double recruiting" scenario? Half those kids would still be at Va. Tech if Brands hadn't gone back to Iowa. Then add the ones who were recruited by Zalesky and you get a pretty good team. Say McFarland comes to OSU and brings Todd, Luke & Russell with him. Not a bad lineup to have.
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on March 10, 2009
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Quote from Jack Muni's post:
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"Isn't Iowa still benefiting from the "double recruiting" scenario? Half those kids would still be at Va. Tech if Brands hadn't gone back to Iowa. Then add the ones who were recruited by Zalesky and you get a pretty good team. Say McFarland comes to OSU and brings Todd, Luke & Russell with him. Not a bad lineup to have."
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Only 4 came with him. Of those 4, Metcalf and Morningstar are the only ones in the current lineup. The other 2 lost their starting jobs this year. I do see your point, however.
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
Gary Corroto added to this discussion on March 11, 2009
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Quote from Mike Taylor's post:
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"
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Quote from Jack Muni's post:
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"Isn't Iowa still benefiting from the "double recruiting" scenario? Half those kids would still be at Va. Tech if Brands hadn't gone back to Iowa. Then add the ones who were recruited by Zalesky and you get a pretty good team. Say McFarland comes to OSU and brings Todd, Luke & Russell with him. Not a bad lineup to have."
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Only 4 came with him. Of those 4, Metcalf and Morningstar are the only ones in the current lineup. The other 2 lost their starting jobs this year. I do see your point, however."
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I belive Borschal who was third last year at 174 also came with him w. Those three will score a lot of points.
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on March 11, 2009
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The five wrestlers who transferred from Virginia Tech to Iowa were Brent Metcalf, Jay Borschel, Joe Slaton, Dan LeClere and T.H. Leet.
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Discussion Topic: The Buckeyes at Big Tens--Thoughts on the Season
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on March 11, 2009
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Quote from Dan Cosimi's post:
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"The five wrestlers who transferred from Virginia Tech to Iowa were Brent Metcalf, Jay Borschel, Joe Slaton, Dan LeClere and T.H. Leet."
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Obviously, you know your program has 'made it', when top wrestlers will come in without receiving financial support. There's no way Iowa has all those guys on their books, not with all the guys who were already there. Unless Mr. Brands pulled the rug out from under a few...?
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