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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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Ohio is one of the largest and best high school wrestling states in the nation. Indeed, I believe we have the third most high school competitors of any state (behind NY and CA). There are only four D1 collegiate programs. Yet two of these schools have one NCAA qualifier between them.
If you're a small, underfunded D1 program in a state like Connecticut then maybe this is understandable. But in this instance, the programs in question are both fully funded--or close.
Call me overly judgemental, but I don't understand how any D1 program in Ohio that has scholarship dollars to offer can fail to produce a single NCAA qualifier. And to have two do so poorly at the same time is doubly embarrassing.
Because wrestling attracts little major media attention, these things go uncommented upon. But that's bad. If a light isn't shined upon a job not well done, then no one pays attention. But guess which programs are getting cut these days--crappy ones. And if you're a lousy program in spite of money being spent, it's that much easier to cut you.
I think it's important for both these programs to rapidly improve not merely for the reputation of Ohio collegiate wrestling. If both don't quickly move forward, it's not unrealistic that one or both could get the ax.
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Joe Boardwine added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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Hank,
You bring up a very good point.
There was a time not that long ago when OU had a string of guys that were highly competitive at the NCAAs. Guys like Shawn Enright, Eric Kimble, Joey Calhoun and Dwight Gardner were all tough as nails. Ed Schilling and John Noble were good as well.
If you look at where they are now... it is pretty rocky. It all comes down to leadership.
If a company is going bankrupt, it is always the CEO that is held responsible. The same is true with the Head Coach. I know that sounds rude, but its true. It is a tough job, not saying it is easy, but to be 1 of 4 D I Ohio schools, and to be one of the weaker teams in the USA is really not acceptable.
Cleve. State is in the same situation, although their campus hurts their recruiting more than Ohio U - who really has no excuse. I mean, why, other than a lack of conducting proper recruiting and training programs, would teams in WV, NC, VA, etc... be so much better than them?
CSU has had a change in leadership, so we should give that a few years to see what is going to happen.
Not saying anything bad about anyone in leadership personally... just my observations about what could / should be given the competitive climate in the state.
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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To further breakdown a lack of leadership:(there are a lot of ways to break it down, but for simplicity sake this makes sense to me)
1) Mismanagement of scholarships (i.e. wrong allocation of scholarship $,
poor choice of student-athlete, inability to plan for the future)
3) Mismanagement of Development (i.e. Unable to develop athletes outside your scope of experience-meaning that it is easier to dismiss the athlete rather than deal with the unique and inherent issues that athlete brings with him,
must
keep the athlete developing along a steady progression, excuses for shortcomings,
(this was a cursory breakdown after thinking about it for awhile, it need just two broad headings 1)Athlete recruiting and 2)Athlete development)
It is a huge undertaking that requires total immersion to succeed. One cannot "get away" with focusing on a few coaching strengths and hope that others aspects will fall into place. They don't. It takes an ability to adapt to change and to outwork your opponent. Kind of sounds like wrestling.
Borrelli is a case study as might Andrassy be in a couple years.
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Last edited by Rex Holman on March 12, 2009; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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Wait a minute. Are you saying there AREN'T walkons on DI programs? I find that difficult to believe. All of those wrestlers are scholarship athletes?
Edit: This was in response to a post that eluded to the fact there are not walk on for DI wrestling programs. It appears the post has been deleted, but any responses to this would be appreciated.
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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Mark: Some programs limit their rosters while others don't. Certainly, there are walk-ons although they're "preferred." In other words, state qualifiers or low placers who aren't good enough to get scholarship dollars but are asked to join the team. Bucks have close to 40 wrestlers on their roster. I don't think they're capped.
Many schools now have club wrestling competition through the NCWA. It's a good place to start for guys that want to continue. It's not the same thing as walking on. But if a wrestler is successful in this venue, he may be noticed by the collegiate coach.
I think Joe and Rex add a lot to this discussion especially when you consider their credentials as competitors and coaches.
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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Hank, why didnt u just name the 2 schools? Spare the politeness and, as u said,
shine the light.
Cleveland St has 1 qual Goff, Ohio U has zero.
fact is Coach Effner didnt leave the CSU program in good shape after his 10 or 11 years here, very disappointing. Now the new guy at CSU has to get a honeymoon of sorts, to be fair. -----But coach Greenlee at Ohio U has been here quite a while, first season was 1997-98, so i don't understand that situation myself.
Hank,
good point: poor programs are much easier to drop
, this worries me too as it should all Ohio wrestling fans, we deseve better. If someone cant do the job or for some reason doesnt have their heart in it, then like it was at Ohio St U, its time to make a change.
Its not personal,
its only fair to wrestling and to Ohio fans, coaches and wrestlers to hold the head coach accountable. Its Not a civil service job after all.
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Mark Palumbo added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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There was a reason I deleted my post. After reading it again I noticed it did not add constructively to the discussion. Rex and Joe are much more on the ball than I would have been. I’ll sit back and enjoy the forum. I was surprised anyone read it that quickly, I deleted it 2 seconds after I posted it. I’ve been away from the sport so long it has almost past me by.
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Jeff Sitler added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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Still being relatively new to Ohio... has CSU ever done exceptionally well going against the Pennsylvania schools of the EWL? Yes I know WVU is in there, but the heart and soul of the EWL are the PA schools.
And if you go back in time far enough, you have to add Penn State as one of those EWL schools.
I grew up where I could be at Lock Haven or Bloomsburg within two hours, so the EWL and the EIWA was what I saw growing up, and Lehigh matches were normally on PBS during the season.
Would CSU benefit by joining the Eastern Regional Qualifier?
I know that throws out the theory of iron sharpens iron, but could get them a few more qualifiers.
Just curious....
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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i don't even know who is in
Eastern Regional but they were alloted only 10
quals and EWL while taking a cut still got at least 22 (then add in at large to both, whatever that was).
EWL with its traditional rivaliries is just fine, Edinboro, W Va, Clarion, Pitt, Lock Haven are good names and not far to travel. No reason CSU cant do well, they did well under coach Bonacci for most of his career until the last years. And Bonacci didnt have the support the program has today.
leaving the EWL definitely not the answer. Everyone cant start for Ohio st or Kent, so theres talent available for CSU. City school or not (as is Pitt btw), CSU is still a Div I school with scholarships to give in a good conference.
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Jeff Sitler added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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quick check
looks like Eastern Regional is
Millersville
Campbell
Delaware State
Gardner-Webb
Duquesne
Liberty
Wagner
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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CSU had some issues with injury this year and their lack of depth just killed them. I wasn't crazy about the hiring of Stehura either. Last time CSU hired a new coach, he (Effner) was a former 2x D1 AA and had coached successfully at Army. This time they hired a less accomplished guy on both ends.
That doesn't mean he can't coach.
It just seems, however, that the CSU administration wants to win on the cheap. Rarely does that work out well.
CSU has some returning talent with Keller and Michaels but there are too many "watch out" wrestlers in this lineup (Those are guys that cause you to yell "watch out" during their matches). They need a lot of help and the first wave of recruits they've signed appears underwhelming. I understand their philosophy is to sign good citizens and develop them as wrestlers. Fine...if it works. Also, none of their recent signings were Ohio wrestlers. How do you draw fans if they're not familiar with the wrestlers? More to the point--if you're operating in NE Ohio, why are you grabbing second tier kids from Wisconsin, Indiana and New Jersey? My hope is that CSU proves me wrong across the board. From the cheap seats, I'm skeptical.
The shame of it is that a pretty good CSU programs draws fans. During Jack's better years, I'd get to a few matches a season and there were always over a thousand at the match. Indeed, CSU was top ten in attendance nationally on a few occasions. Hundreds would come to their intrasquad. I wouldn't call CSU a sleeping giant. But when this team is good, the Cleveland wrestling community notices. Right now, it's put all of us to sleep.
OU has had a problem for several years with attrition within the program. Capable upperclassmen have been shed like fleas for a variety of reasons. If you can't keep your most experienced wrestlers, you're going to lose a lot. You're also going to have to start a lot of young guys. OU didn't have that bad a season when one considers the youth in this lineup as well as the injuries they suffered. But they put themselves in this position through mismanagement. Next year, OU will be able to put an experienced lineup on the mat made up of the best of several recruiting classes. They also have Kyle Lang coming in who I think is a very nice pickup. Bottom line--they need to become relevant again. And next year will be time for it to happen.
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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Hank, yep at OU its always wait till next year, has been this way for a while. --- i'm not dissing anyone personally but the facts must be faced. Hank, will u be saying same thing
again
a year from now ??
Bonacci use to bring in a powerhouse team to excite local fans at CSU
, he brought in Iowa, Arizona St, of course Penn St when they were in the EWL. Need to get back that feeling that we aren't minor league.
Heck, Bonacci brought in the NCAA Div tourn here in 1998 !!!!
what bothers me is a renowned guy like Dan Fickel of Wr USA mag tells me
no one currently at CSU has ever contacted him
--- heres a guy who might go into the Ntational Hall of Fame eventually and he lives in Greater Cleveland and noone touches base with him ???!!!!!
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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I cannot speak for every school, nor can I speak for every recruit. However, back in '96 when my brother and I were school hunting, Ohio U came after my twin bro. We visited there and saw more of the wrestling program than we expected. They showed us the wrestling room, but while they walked away for just a minute, we heard a number of the wrestlers griping about one of their assistant coaches doing nothing but beating up on them with no intention of teaching in mind. It was their belief he was only focused on making the Olympic team and was simply using them as beating toys. If that attitude and grumbling carried on w/ those guys for years after, it may have scared off more recruits than just my bro. Once the cupboard is bare, it's hard to restock...especially when the wrestlers are griping about part of the coaching staff.
Just my observation.
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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Greenlee wasnt there in 1996, he got job in 1997-98 season so thats not his fault. i like Joel personally and hope things turnaround. But they need to turnaround soon.
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Discussion Topic: How Does This Happen?
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on March 12, 2009
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"Greenlee wasnt there in 1996, he got job in 1997-98 season so thats not his fault. I like Joel personally and hope things turnaround. But they need to turnaround soon."
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Right. It was Houska. However, my point is that if the wrestlers have maintained that disgruntled attitude THEY may be chasing off recruits. Like a cancer, that attitude spreads.
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