|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 23, 2009
|
|
Quote from John Flanigan's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from John Flanigan's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from John Flanigan's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Anthony Petrella's post:
|
|
"Rex,
definitely agree. I just thought running away from metcalf and then starting a celebration before the match was over was disrespectful to metcalf... but disrespectful to the sport. This is not basketball or football. We are better than that."
|
One thing that we many times lose sight of, is the fact that these are still young men. He beat the unbeatable opponent on the largest stage for the sport. I am not condoning his actions and thought he should have waited, but that is only my perspective from the sidelines.
However, I am more thrilled at his jubilant display as opposed to seeing someone win and not even be excited. They are
supposed
to be young men, excited at being crowned the best in the country, not robots going through the paces of just another victory. The display may have been wrong, in my eyes, but the emotion was great."
|
Sort of young. I have seen 14 year olds win skating or gymnastics WORLD championships who knew how to conduct themselves. Age is NOT an excuse."
|
The difference is that they are not out there at the same time, actually fighting aginst each other. Comparing skating and wrestling is not even close to a valid comparison."
|
So you are automatically more mature if your opponent is not standing next to you. Then use young girls winning tennis championships as an example. Chris Evert was MUCH more mature wining Wimbledon for God's sake than these guys were on a much smaller stage.
Simple point is they are plently old enough to know better, but didn't. Age is NOT an excuse for them."
|
No, there is a bit of a difference in direct competition than when one follows another. Just because YOU think that people should act a specific way does not mean that they will. Should I pull out examples of older people acting worse and use it to back up my claim? Very simple, yet as meaningless as your argument."
|
Might not be hand to hand combat, but tennis is not direct competition? Of course just because I, well actually many people, think people should act a certain way doesn't mean they will. But it also doesn't mean they shouldn't. And of course old people will act like fools, but typically at a much smaller rate than guys who celebrate every little thing they do, or celebrate significant achievements in classless ways.
I am at a loss to understand how you might back up the way Caldwell behaved BEFORE the match was even over.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 23, 2009
|
|
Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
|
|
"Regarding the end of the 149 bout:
Caldwell is a hot dog and he showed it.
Metcalf is wound too tight and he showed it as well.
Overall, I think it's not a big deal either way."
|
Neither was certainly the end of the world, but both could have handled things much better. That is basically the only point.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Hugh Gettig added to this discussion on March 23, 2009
|
We all agree that both wrestlers could've handled the end of the match differently. What's a shame is that the last three seconds of the match is getting more discussion than the first 6:57, which to me is the more interesting part.
Who honestly thought Metcalf would lose? He was supposedly unbeatable. What did Caldwell do that no one else did? He went after Metcalf and didn't get caught up in the vise-like grip of his tie-ups. As soon as Metcalf tied up, Caldwell jerked out of it. I know, easier said than done. He took Metcalf down twice early in the first period and after the second takedown you could almost see the look on Metcalf's face that he knew he was in for a lot of trouble. I've never seen that before, the confidence was gone at that point.
Caldwell also rode him quite well, I haven't seen that before either.
It was as if we entered bizarro world, Metcalft didn't just lose, he was beat and beat soundly and nobody thought that would happen. This was much more interesting to me than the carnival like ending.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Roe Fox added to this discussion on March 23, 2009
|
I personally think the backflip is a little contrived but the guy just beat the unbeatable. We have had many high school champions do it without as much fanfare. What I find interesting is his constant reference in his interviews to giving glory to God for the win, then acting like he did.
This would be a far different conversation if Caldwell falls on his back or head after Metcalf shoves him and is more severely injured. Absolutely bushleague by Metcalf. This was clearly done in anger and frustration, not to win the match. And as far as expecting better, this guy competes at the World level. He should be able to handle it better. Never saw Schlatter act like this after losing the year following his title.
As I recall the "Iowa Way" under Gable, it didn't include this. The match was clearly over.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Josh Lowe added to this discussion on March 23, 2009
|
I agree with Hugh. If only the first 6:50-6:55 of the match was dissected with such scrutiny -- we could learn and enjoy things so much more!
What about Caldwell going "balls to the walls" from the start of the match. I'm going to dictate things on my terms, opposition be darned.
What about the great riding technique of Caldwell to accrue the +1:00 RT inside the first two periods. How about the fact that this gave Metcalf less time to dictate the match on his terms.
What about Metcalf's persistence in coming back with very deep and strong counterattacks. Then, what about Caldwell's awesome counter-scrambling in response. Not only did he fend those off, he scored points of his own.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Anthony Petrella added to this discussion on March 23, 2009
|
My intent of this topic was not to take away from the match. The match was great. My point of this topic was the actions of both wrestlers. I'm wrestling in college now but you can call me old school I guess...You win or lose... you shake your opponent's hand, you shake the opposing coaches hand, and then you celebrate in an acceptable fashion. Caldwell running away... I will let that go, but starting his tumbling before the match was over and before he shook metcalf's hand was out of line.
|
Last edited by Anthony Petrella on March 24, 2009; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
John Flanigan added to this discussion on March 24, 2009
|
|
Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from John Flanigan's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from John Flanigan's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from John Flanigan's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Anthony Petrella's post:
|
|
"Rex,
definitely agree. I just thought running away from metcalf and then starting a celebration before the match was over was disrespectful to metcalf... but disrespectful to the sport. This is not basketball or football. We are better than that."
|
One thing that we many times lose sight of, is the fact that these are still young men. He beat the unbeatable opponent on the largest stage for the sport. I am not condoning his actions and thought he should have waited, but that is only my perspective from the sidelines.
However, I am more thrilled at his jubilant display as opposed to seeing someone win and not even be excited. They are
supposed
to be young men, excited at being crowned the best in the country, not robots going through the paces of just another victory. The display may have been wrong, in my eyes, but the emotion was great."
|
Sort of young. I have seen 14 year olds win skating or gymnastics WORLD championships who knew how to conduct themselves. Age is NOT an excuse."
|
The difference is that they are not out there at the same time, actually fighting aginst each other. Comparing skating and wrestling is not even close to a valid comparison."
|
So you are automatically more mature if your opponent is not standing next to you. Then use young girls winning tennis championships as an example. Chris Evert was MUCH more mature wining Wimbledon for God's sake than these guys were on a much smaller stage.
Simple point is they are plently old enough to know better, but didn't. Age is NOT an excuse for them."
|
No, there is a bit of a difference in direct competition than when one follows another. Just because YOU think that people should act a specific way does not mean that they will. Should I pull out examples of older people acting worse and use it to back up my claim? Very simple, yet as meaningless as your argument."
|
Might not be hand to hand combat, but tennis is not direct competition? Of course just because I, well actually many people, think people should act a certain way doesn't mean they will. But it also doesn't mean they shouldn't. And of course
old people
will act like fools, but typically at a much smaller rate than guys who celebrate every little thing they do, or celebrate significant achievements in classless ways."
|
Or in other words, younger people are more likely to act emotionally - just what I said in my first response. Glad we agree.
|
Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
|
|
"
I am at a loss to understand how you might back up the way Caldwell behaved BEFORE the match was even over."
|
Go ahead and quote me saying I APPROVED of what Caldwell did. In fact, I clearly stated that I DID NOT condone his actions, but that I UNDERSTOOD that he may have gotten caught up in the moment. I stated a couple of times that I disapproved, yet I can like the fact that he was emotional about winning. Contrast that with what many here have said about Metcalf not looking like he enjoyed the moment after a win. That is not the attitude I want for someone who is the face of the sport any more than I want the over the top display of Caldwell.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 24, 2009
|
|
Quote from John Flanigan's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from John Flanigan's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from John Flanigan's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from John Flanigan's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Anthony Petrella's post:
|
|
"Rex,
definitely agree. I just thought running away from metcalf and then starting a celebration before the match was over was disrespectful to metcalf... but disrespectful to the sport. This is not basketball or football. We are better than that."
|
One thing that we many times lose sight of, is the fact that these are still young men. He beat the unbeatable opponent on the largest stage for the sport. I am not condoning his actions and thought he should have waited, but that is only my perspective from the sidelines.
However, I am more thrilled at his jubilant display as opposed to seeing someone win and not even be excited. They are
supposed
to be young men, excited at being crowned the best in the country, not robots going through the paces of just another victory. The display may have been wrong, in my eyes, but the emotion was great."
|
Sort of young. I have seen 14 year olds win skating or gymnastics WORLD championships who knew how to conduct themselves. Age is NOT an excuse."
|
The difference is that they are not out there at the same time, actually fighting aginst each other. Comparing skating and wrestling is not even close to a valid comparison."
|
So you are automatically more mature if your opponent is not standing next to you. Then use young girls winning tennis championships as an example. Chris Evert was MUCH more mature wining Wimbledon for God's sake than these guys were on a much smaller stage.
Simple point is they are plently old enough to know better, but didn't. Age is NOT an excuse for them."
|
No, there is a bit of a difference in direct competition than when one follows another. Just because YOU think that people should act a specific way does not mean that they will. Should I pull out examples of older people acting worse and use it to back up my claim? Very simple, yet as meaningless as your argument."
|
Might not be hand to hand combat, but tennis is not direct competition? Of course just because I, well actually many people, think people should act a certain way doesn't mean they will. But it also doesn't mean they shouldn't. And of course
old people
will act like fools, but typically at a much smaller rate than guys who celebrate every little thing they do, or celebrate significant achievements in classless ways."
|
Or in other words, younger people are more likely to act emotionally - just what I said in my first response. Glad we agree.
If only they were truly young.
|
Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
|
|
"
I am at a loss to understand how you might back up the way Caldwell behaved BEFORE the match was even over."
|
Go ahead and quote me saying I APPROVED of what Caldwell did. In fact, I clearly stated that I DID NOT condone his actions, but that I UNDERSTOOD that he may have gotten caught up in the moment. I stated a couple of times that I disapproved, yet I can like the fact that he was emotional about winning. Contrast that with what many here have said about Metcalf not looking like he enjoyed the moment after a win. That is not the attitude I want for someone who is the face of the sport any more than I want the over the top display of Caldwell."
|
I[b] guess you would have disapproved of Jim Brown too. All he did after scoring was hand the ref the ball.
[/b]
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
John Flanigan added to this discussion on March 24, 2009
|
Gary, they
are
young. Reach way back into your memory and remember what it was like to be 19 or 20 years old.
As for Jim Brown, I always thought he was a class act and enjoy watching the films, since he was before my time. Should I break out a Billy "White Shoes" Johnson reference for a player who showed emotion long before it was cool?
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 24, 2009
|
|
Quote from John Flanigan's post:
|
|
"Gary, they
are
young. Reach way back into your memory and remember what it was like to be 19 or 20 years old.
As for Jim Brown, I always thought he was a class act and enjoy watching the films, since he was before my time. Should I break out a Billy "White Shoes" Johnson reference for a player who showed emotion long before it was cool?"
|
John, I don't have to reach back too far, I have had 3 20 year old children, with 2 more yet to turn 20. And all of them knew to wait until the competition was OVER to celebrate.
I liked White Shoes as well, but he waited until he crossed the goal line to celebrate, never did it prematurely. I have NO problems with anyone showing genuine emotion, though I do wonder in many sports about contrived or rehearsed celebrations. But there is a right and a wrong way to celebrate, and Caldwell was definitely wrong and I believe he knew it at the time he was doing it. Just my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Jack Muni added to this discussion on March 24, 2009
|
I'm still trying to figure out who the crowd was booing after the match. Was it the Iowa fans booing Caldwell or the other fans booing Metcalf for pushing him? It was hard to tell watching it on TV.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Laurel Miller added to this discussion on March 26, 2009
|
<sign_oh> <sign_io> I happen to be a big Metcalf fan after watching him for 5 years and getting to know him and his family. I believe both guys were equally wrong, but Caldwell definitely beat him in that match. This article expresses many of my feelings.
SESKER COLUMN: Bashing of Iowa's Metcalf needs to end
Craig Sesker USA Wrestling
03/26/2009
The Brent Metcalf bashing needs to stop.
Did Metcalf go over the line when he pushed North Carolina State’s
Darrion Caldwell at the end of their 149-pound match in the NCAA
finals? Sure, he probably did to some extent.
But let’s keep everything in perspective when you talk about what
happened Saturday night at the NCAA Championships in St. Louis.
Caldwell did turn his back to Metcalf and started moving away from him.
Metcalf gave chase, with time still remaining on the clock, and
should’ve stopped before shoving Caldwell as he started to do a
backflip. I’m not a big fan of athletes celebrating wins w hen time is
still left on the clock in any sport. That’s unsportsmanlike conduct as
well.
Emotions were running high. If Metcalf wanted to inflict bodily harm on
Caldwell, he easily could have. He was penalized one team point for
unsportsmanlike conduct and that was it. And that was the correct call.
It is unfortunate that more people are talking about Metcalf’s
momentary lapse than what a great match Caldwell wrestled. The N.C.
State junior had a great game plan, wrestled aggressively and beat one
of the best college wrestlers that I’ve ever seen. Caldwell is a
phenomenal athlete and turned in a fabulous performance. The scrambles
he won in the match were some of the best I have witnessed in 13 years
of covering this event.
But let’s keep everything in perspective. Metcalf has been great for
the sport of wrestling. He’s a great young man and a great ambassador
for the sport. He conducts himself the right way, on and off the mat.
You don’t see any headlines about Metcalf getting into trouble. He’s a
Dean’s List student and an Academic All-Big Ten selection.
He wrestles the way you are supposed to. He wrestles a wide-open,
aggressive, attacking style where he puts points on the board. If more
people wrestled like Metcalf, the sport would be much more popular.
He’s fun to watch. You don’t see him beat ing someone 3-2, hanging on to
win 2-1 on riding time or ending up in those marathon, overtime matches
where nobody does anything.
He’s always looking to score points and wants to turn in a dominating performance against everyone he faces.
Metcalf works hard and is very coachable. He trains the way you should and wrestles the way you should.
He competes in freestyle in the spring and summer, and follows the type
of program USA Wrestling encourages its young stars to follow. He
dominated competition at Junior Nationals in Fargo, N.D., and has
continued that as a Junior World Team member and now having success at
the Senior level.
Andy Hamilton of the Iowa City Press-Citizen, one of the nation’s top
wrestling journalists, said Metcalf is one of the most accessible,
articulate and classy athletes he’s ever dealt with in his career.
Metcalf impressed me with the way he handled himself after losing. He
came out and faced the media shortly after the loss, answering many of
the same questions over and over about why he lost the match.
I’ve seen a lot of wrestlers from Iowa, and other schools, refuse to
grant interviews after dropping matches a lot less significant than the
one Metcalf lost. Metcalf stood there and faced the tough questions.
And he gave honest, complete answers to the questions.
Later that night, at th e Hawkeye team party, Metcalf was called into
the center of a crowded hotel ballroom to address the crowd. The crowd
stood and cheered for about 20 seconds after Iowa coach Tom Brands
handed Metcalf the microphone.
Metcalf then told the crowd that there was no place he would rather be
at that moment than in the ballroom where he was standing. He thanked
his teammates and coaches for helping the Hawkeyes win the team title.
He was very well-spoken and matter-of-fact, and sounded more like a
coach than a college student when he skillfully addressed the large
group of fans.
Metcalf stuck around and posed for pictures with Hawkeye fans and
signed autographs for them. It was impressive how well he handled
everything on a night that clearly did not go as planned.
After the Hawk party, Hamilton told me he thinks more of Metcalf than
he ever has because of the way he conducted himself late Saturday
night. I couldn’t agree with him more.
Let’s stop all of this unnecessary Metcalf bashing and move on. His
push of Caldwell has been blown completely out of proportion.
Brent Metcalf is a great wrestler, a great student and a great young man. He’s a class act.
He is one of the top contenders to make the 2009 U.S. World Team in
freestyle, and don’t be surprised if he earns a trip to Denmark for
September’s World Champi onships. He has an excellent shot at being on
the 2012 Olympic Team.
It’s easy to forget sometimes that these are college kids. Metcalf is
only 22 years old – he doesn’t deserve all the negative attention and
criticism that has come his way.
It is unfortunate that Metcalf lost a year of college eligibility
because he wanted to change schools. At the same time, other athletes
don’t lose any eligibility after being dismissed from another school.
Metcalf should still have two years of college eligibility left.
Metcalf only has one college season left and you can bet he will come
back with a vengeance. And he will do it the right way, by working
hard, listening to his coaches and wrestling his tail off every time he
steps on the mat.
Brent Metcalf didn’t win his second NCAA title on Saturday night, but he’s still a champion in my book.
People who boo a classy kid like Metcalf are the ones who don’t have any class.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Steve Lester added to this discussion on March 26, 2009
|
I think Mr. Sesker's artical has problems from beginning to end. My opinion only.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Laurel Miller added to this discussion on March 27, 2009
|
|
Quote from Steve Lester's post:
|
|
"I think Mr. Sesker's artical has problems from beginning to end. My opinion only."
|
What are the "problems" you speak about??
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Actions after winning a national title
Steve Lester added to this discussion on March 28, 2009
|
OK, but I'm not sure you want to hear this.
"The bashing of Brent Metcalf has to stop"
Here, right in his opening sentence, he throws Caldwell under the bus.
Why doesn't it read:
The bashing of Brent Metcalf and Darrion Caldwell has to stop?
Since both wrestlers have been heavily criticized, it appears that Mr. Sesker considers Brent Metcalf more important. His defense of Metcalf begins with the words "probably" and "to an extent" in describing the closing midair push of Caldwell by Metcalf, though he also says that the referee was correct (NOT probably correct) in assessing the point penalty.
He categorically condemns Caldwell's celebration and says (in context) he should have been hit with a USC also. Apart for the fact that that's a questionable position to take according to the rules in place, no defense of Caldwell is offered at all. The bus wheels have run him over.
In his 6th paragraph he resurrects Caldwell to laud his wrestling, and then promptly tossed him back under the bus. You will see his name no more in the following 21 or so paragraphs.
The rest of the article is basically a puff piece, though there are important references to Metcalf's future after college and his current role in USA Wrestling-sponsored events. Mr. Sesker strikes me as essentially a PR person for USA Wrestling.
Would it be reasonable to conclude from what is written in this column that USA Wrestling has big plans for Metcalf, but none for Caldwell?
Sesker closes with:
"People who boo a classy kid like Metcalf are the ones who don’t have any class."
I take it here that he is equating booing with critical comments made on message boards (AKA bashing), specifically USA Wrestling's own message board, Themat.com.
I have seen plenty of folks get raked over the coals on "his" message board. A recent case involved Tom Ryan and Mike Pucillo following the Big Ten championships. They were brutalized, particularly by the Iowa faithful. USA Wrestling and it's writers took no position. At least the board moderators took one thread down that got personal about Ryan's family, though it came about 24 hours too late. Kudos for that.
I expressed my dismay over Metcalf's comments about Lance Palmer following their match. I make no claim to be a classy person. Far from it. But sometimes criticism (or booing to use Sesker's term) is justified, even if the target is USA Wrestling's poster boy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
