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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Josh Lowe added to this discussion on March 24, 2009
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I think a best wrestler in Ohio history conversation starts with Alan Fried, Tom Milkovich, and Dustin Schlatter -- then it goes from there.
Fried.
3 state titles, third as a frosh when he was undersized at 98.
FOUR - yes four - Junior National FS titles. The only one to do that, and that was when there were less weight classes and Cadet combined into Junior weights.
2-2-X-1 in college, and the "X" was because the school was ineligible to compete.
T Milkovich.
100-0 in HS, I think that speaks for itself.
Freshmen were ineligible to compete, so three state titles is the max.
Dustin Schlatter
4 state titles
Three Cadet/Junior DOUBLE titles (twice as a Cadet, once after soph year as a Junior). Did not compete after junior or senior year in Fargo.
Three-time NCAA AA, including a national title as a true frosh.
I don't think Jaggers belongs as part of that conversation. Though he has two national titles, four state titles - I don't think he has that broad level of dominance that these three young men and others had in the course of his career.
If you're looking for a Mr. mid-March, there is no better than Jaggers.
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on March 25, 2009
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Josh, Jaggers absolutely belongs in any discussion of the best ever from the state of Ohio.
4x State Champion
3x All-American
2x National Champion
Those are the only numbers that matter. As the commentators said during this weekends broadcast, "how many wrestlers would take a few losses during the year if they it meant a National Championship." (not an exact quote.)
Those numbers are matched only by Jim Jordan in Ohio. Fried only won three state titles and one NCAA title. Schlatter can top those numbers next season if he can win another title making him a 4x SC, 4x AA, and 2x NC.
As a coach, I (and many other coaches that I know) preached that the regular season was entirely practice for the post season. Did my kids want to go undefeated? Yes, and a handful of them did. They also did not dwell on losses. Jason Hackett (3x state placer, state champion, Senior Nationals Champion beating Jake Herbert in the finals) did not dwell on his loss even in the state tournament. He refocused and won a National Championship.
I have argued many times that too much emphasis is placed on Fargo results as a determiner of greatness. There are 1000 reasons why kids perform well and perform poorly at Fargo and some never compete at all. Is Fargo success a pretty good indicator of talent, absolutely. The best of the best are there and to win means that you beat the best of the best. The big question is, how much freestyle or greco experience does the best of the best have? Many (more than 80-85%) of kids don't even think about freestyle or greco until they are already in high school, putting themselves behind the curve of those with Cadet level success. I think that it is unbelievable to think about Fried winning four junior titles, but honestly, Luke Fickell may have been a better freestyle talent during that same time frame (Luke and I are a little younger than Fried.) Luke finished fifth at a Senior level International event while still in high school. So does that make Fickell better than Fried, maybe, maybe not. See my point.
With all of that said, everyone is entitled to their opinions. Regardless of your opinions though, Jaggers IS in the discussion.
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 25, 2009
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4xer quite an accomplishment but Ohio churns out quite a few 4xers anymore, 2 just this year and at least one almost every year nowadays. Why? 3 classes.
under a ONE class sytem, how many 4Xers would still be a 4Xer
???? Very very few.
Dustin Schlatter
---and some veteran experts say, yes they do,
Eric Burnett
??? Intriguing question indeed. Have to go back and look at who won same wt all 4 years in the other 2 classes.
Luke Fickel
has to be on the very short list of Ohio greatest, but he was only a 3Xer---- a phenomenal 285, u had to see him to appreciate him, at about 6 ft 4 and 250 he wrestled like a star little man.
Bobby Douglas
once said, "
If Fickel had chosen wrestling he would be the heir to Bruce Baumgartner."
Case closed.
i first coined the phrase
The Greatometer
in Jaggers era -- Ron Good laffs about it-- The Greatometer says if a kid wins
both Fargo junior freestyle and NHSCA sr nationals
he is probably bound for college stardom, Jaggers did both too.
Jaggers gets EXTRA points for FLAIR, too.
He was exciting to watch. In fargo when he won Jr FR, he was hoplessly behind Cyler Sanderson in the finals. But Jaggers baited Sanderson into taking a shot and J pinned him with the cradle to win it.
when u ADD in the FLAIR factor then Jaggers stock really goes up.
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
John Flanigan added to this discussion on March 25, 2009
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"
under a ONE class sytem, how many 4Xers would still be a 4Xer
???? Very very few.
Dustin Schlatter
---and some veteran experts say, yes they do,
Eric Burnett
??? Intriguing question indeed. Have to go back and look at who won same wt all 4 years in the other 2 classes.
"
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I think Burnett would have had to contend with Fried, and I don't think he would have gotten past him.
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 25, 2009
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maybe BUT
Burnett would have been a Senior when he had to beat Fried who was a Sophomore,
some veteran experts say Burnett could do it, had the unstopable barrell-roll.
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
John Flanigan added to this discussion on March 25, 2009
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"maybe BUT
Burnett would have been a Senior when he had to beat Fried who was a Sophomore,
some veteran experts say Burnett could do it, had the unstopable barrell-roll."
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That barrel roll was a thing of beauty. That would have been an awesome match to see. Too bad Burnett did not go to a Catholic school, as they probably would have met at the CIT.
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Laurel Miller added to this discussion on March 25, 2009
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Sorry I'm not able to comment on the best state wrestlers, but I was sitting at the NCAAs with the OSU group and ask one of the wrestlers and they said they had all been out tanning. Actually I thought some of our guys looked more tan at the Big Tens, but definitely had that healthy tan color for the nation to see!
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Ben Golden added to this discussion on March 25, 2009
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Quote from Laurel Miller's post:
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"Sorry I'm not able to comment on the best state wrestlers, but I was sitting at the NCAAs with the OSU group and ask one of the wrestlers and they said they had all been out tanning. Actually I thought some of our guys looked more tan at the Big Tens, but definitely had that healthy tan color for the nation to see!"
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That's definitely one of the parts of the tournament I tried to ignore...
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Bill Splete added to this discussion on March 26, 2009
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I've seen some greats, in our room(St.John's) and think that shawn nelson was tough and as dominant as anyone, but I have to agree with Ryan about Alan Fried, guys if you weren't there then you don't know how tough this guy really was. Around that time there were still no division I 4x state champs and most of the 4xers back then would have not been 4xers in division one, it wouldn't and didn't happen. This guy dominated when ohio dominated all states and he was tops on the list. All bs aside he was simply great, this guy was our Lee Kemp for that time. Having said that Logan Stieber has my vote already for ohio's greatest, the way he dominates position is remarkable and he clearly out works his opponents.
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 26, 2009
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"Having said that Logan Stieber has my vote already for ohio's greatest, the way he dominates position is remarkable and he clearly out works his opponents."
-------------------------------
Bill, yes L Stieber appears to be a great one,
but u don't mention David TAYLOR
the only 4X Ironman champ ever who beat L Stieber in the finals to win the Ironman a few years ago ?????
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Roe Fox added to this discussion on March 26, 2009
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Re Fried, I saw him a couple of times in high school and one allstar match. It would be nice to see some of his HS or college matches on-line. Anyone know where they may be viewed?
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Nicholas Sestito added to this discussion on March 26, 2009
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I saw Alan Fried's national title match with Gerry Abas online at youtube in addition to his lone MMA fight with Rumina Sato in Japan. As for high school, I too am interested in seeing what he was like at the high school level.
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Last edited by Nicholas Sestito on March 26, 2009; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 26, 2009
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Matside with Bob Dieli, a public access show out of Columbus has a two hour show that I have seen before. It airs every year. It has highlights and great matches from Alan Fried's career. I think it has a match against Adam DiSabito when they were both in high school (finals of the Ready Classic, maybe). His match going into his junior year against John Smith at 136.5. A acouple of his bouts with Brands, some freestyle stuff. It's excellent.
Maybe they can show it on one of their upcoming broadcasts.
For my part, I think Jagger has to be in any conversation about the best of all time. Simply put, he was a champion at every level, and not many can say that, let alone a 4X and 2X.
Being a child of the eighties, Alan Fried is at the top of my list, but I understand that guys like Milkovitch, Jim Jordan and Lee Kemp are right there or maybe even above him. I know he never really competed at the post high school level, but Luke Fickell was the most dominant force I ever saw at the high school level. I know heavyweights are different, but still.
Rex...Good call on Nelson. People forget how good he was. I think it's because he
only
AAed once at Penn State (of course that was up a weight due to 2X National champion Jeff Prescott in the line-up). He was a 3X dominant state champion, undefeated for three years and only challenged late in his career by the equally excellent Steve St. John. He was great in all phases, a real student of the sport.
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on March 26, 2009
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Quote from Ben Golden's post:
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"
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Quote from Laurel Miller's post:
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"Sorry I'm not able to comment on the best state wrestlers, but I was sitting at the NCAAs with the OSU group and ask one of the wrestlers and they said they had all been out tanning. Actually I thought some of our guys looked more tan at the Big Tens, but definitely had that healthy tan color for the nation to see!"
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That's definitely one of the parts of the tournament I tried to ignore..."
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As we all should. <smiling>
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Discussion Topic: Is Jaggers...
Bill Splete added to this discussion on March 26, 2009
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It's funny how are thoughts can run wild, probably when were all working,as I should be now. We all have our greats, I to loved to watch Luke Fickell, great wrestler and even better person. I actually wrestled Luke when he was a freshman, lucky for me I didn't have to wrestle him when he sprouted, he became a giant. I won't tell you the score, because he is way to big for this to get back to him, but it was a tight match. As for David Taylor, he is very very good, but he hasn't competed on the senior national level and there are guys like the altons or the guy from Florida(sorry I can't spell his name) that could give him a match. pound for pound Logan is running with the big dogs on the senior level and that is beyond anyone else. That is Henry Cejuda territory, to jump levels and win is remarkable. I will be watching in early april to see if Logan will wrestle in the senior open. He is a kid walking with some tough men, I just find his relaxed nature and physical talent amazing. He smiles then thumps your head. In conclusion we have one tough state and a tremendous history of wrestling that is restocking every year. Nice
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