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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 1, 2009
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"Bob: They wouldn't let him out of that given that they've given him nothing yet and the coach who he signed to wrestle for is gone?"
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Dan,
Sam White u mean, no i don't think they'd let White out of his Letter of Intent---- its never done from my experience. Once a kid signs, hes stuck. Example Mark Grey signed with Lehigh, but when coaching change occured he went to community college for a year then enrolled in Cornell.
and whose to say White wants out ? maybe he just liked the idea of going to Illinois. I'm sure Illinois will hire another top head coach, too. Its not like some bum is going to succeed coach Johnson.
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 1, 2009
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Bob: I'm reasonably certain that athletes can request to be released from an NLI if a coaching change occurs prior to the time that school begins. Isn't that how Ryan Patrovich ended up at Ohio State? I'm pretty sure he'd signed an NLI with Hofstra but opted out after Coach Ryan left.
As an aside, think about the fact that Mike Pucillo spent his true frosh season at Hofstra. It's hard to imagine that he was ever not a Buckeye.
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 1, 2009
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Hank,
the circumstances u sight are not the same as Sam White's. Patrovich re Hofstra i don't know, but he enrolled at Ohio st U and was given his release late in the Fall of his freshman year. Pucillo spent a full year at Hofstra before being given his release.
another very well know situation, the entire Virginia Tech guys that Brands recruited were released when Brands left because Virginia Tech didnt want to mess witht an ugly situation--- was decided by Virginia Tech admin that it was better to start a clean slate for new coach Kevin Dresser. And those Virginia Tech guys were all on Virginia Tech campus for a year too.
this circumstance with White is that-- unlike these other cases--- he hasnt even reported to U of illnois yet. New coach hasnt been named. And who says White even wants a release ???
yes can request release from Lof I, but colleges don't often release a kid from his L of I because it screws the college, since they have counted on filling a certain weight class. Also they want new recruits to meet the new head coach before any drastic action is taken. White might love the new head coach.
i agree maybe kids not on campus yet should be released when there is head coaching change-- no argument from me-- but it seems to be rare that it happens before a kid has even enrolled.
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 1, 2009
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Bob: I wasn't clear.
Ryan Patrovich signed an NLI with Hofstra but had not yet begun school. Ryan announced he was resigning from Hofstra. Patrovich was released from his NLI to Hofstra. Ryan had to recruit him again to bring him to Ohio State. I'm almost certain that the release is automatic if the recruit has not yet arrived for his first year. In most instances, the recruit stays with his original choice. But sometimes they change their mind. In fact, I remember some discussion on the forums about whether or not Lance Palmer would come to Ohio State when Hellickson left since he had not yet arrived at school.
And I know that in other sports some recruits decide not to attend a given school when this situation occurs. Usually, however, recruits stick with their original choice for financial reasons.
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 1, 2009
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"Ryan Patrovich signed an NLI with Hofstra but had not yet begun school. Ryan announced he was resigning from Hofstra. Patrovich was released from his NLI to Hofstra. Ryan had to recruit him again to bring him to Ohio State."
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ok Hank, i get it, well that was unusual in that Patrovich was released from the L of I to follow the coach who had initially got him to sign an L of I. A special situation and probably a favor to coach Ryan who had put Hofstra on the wrestling map.
otherwise i don't think u r correct, i think its highly unusual for incoming a freshman
not yet on campus
to be released from their L of I, highly unusual. Can anyone name another incidence ? The Letter of Intent is seen as a very serious document by the NCAA, but yes it is up to the individual college.
there may have been "forum discussion" however Lance Palmer had no choice but to enroll at Ohio st U after Russ departed-- unless Lance was willing to sit out of wrestling with no Div I grant in aid for that first year. Like Mike Grey chose to do, say no to Lehigh then sit out a year.
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
John Robert Dula added to this discussion on April 1, 2009
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I googled (NCAA letter of intent coach change) Below is one of many frequently asked questions on one of the sites. I do not know how reliable or how old this information is. There is a lot on the net to read on this subject for anyone that cares to read it.
Is a National Letter of Intent binding if the coach of my sport leaves the institution?
Do I sign a National Letter of Intent if I transfer to another four-year institution?
Yes. The National Letter of Intent you signed with an institution is valid if the coach who recruited you leaves the institution with which you signed. When you sign a National Letter of Intent you sign with an institution and not with a coach or a specific team.
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on April 1, 2009
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"another very well know situation, the entire Virginia Tech guys that Brands recruited were released when Brands left because Virginia Tech didnt want to mess witht an ugly situation--- was decided by Virginia Tech admin that it was better to start a clean slate for new coach Kevin Dresser. And those Virginia Tech guys were all on Virginia Tech campus for a year too. "
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Are you sure about that? If they were released, why did they all have to sit out a year at Iowa?
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 1, 2009
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yes they sat out, good question, i don't know ? maybe they werent released, anyone have a better memory ?--- but Metcalf and was it Borchel, Morningstar, LeClere and Slaton who were released by or left Virginia Tech, as i recall. They all had redshirted at Virginia Tech i think.
As Mr Dula points out from his google, the L of I is binding regardless if the head coach leaves, unless the college chooses to release
-- and from my observation they usually don't choose to release an incoming freshman.
Right now Iowa is sitting on 2 recruiting classes, theirs and Va Techs-- Iowa had alot of depth now, but that wont be the case in 2 years.
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on April 1, 2009
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Personally, I'm hoping PSU gets a coach who couldn't recruit aardvarks to anthills, so maybe Ryan could sneak a couple of studs out of PA the next year or two.
A man can dream... <smile>
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
Roe Fox added to this discussion on April 1, 2009
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I believe the athlete can be released by the school to wrestle the following year. If not released then they sit.
Isn't this also what happened with Dave Rella? I believe I read on another site that Platt was immediately released also based on some agreement he had when he signed on to PSU.
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 2, 2009
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Four of the five Virginia Tech wrestlers were not released. They chose to transfer. If you transfer without being released, you must sit a year (D1 to D1). Virginia Tech wanted the wrestlers to stay and contemplated dropping the program in the immediate aftermath of Brands decision to leave. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed, Dresser was hired and the Hokies are now a stable program.
Rella received a release from PSU; hence he did not have to sit out.
The only Virginia Tech wrestler that was unaffected was recruit Billy Murphy. Murphy had signed an NLI but it was determined to be fraudulent because it had not been signed by his appropriate legal guardian.
I stand corrected on the NLI issue.
I believe, however, that most institutions will release an athlete from his obligation if he is recruited under the conditions we're describing, ie: the coach resigns before the athlete arrives for his frosh season.
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
Todd Vennis added to this discussion on April 2, 2009
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Quote:
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"
Transfer 101 - Basic information you need to know about transferring to an NCAA college For Divisions I/II/III 2007-08
http://www.drexeldragons.com/Pdfs/gen/2007/11/2/2007-08_transfer_guide.pdf
Ch. 3, Pg. 9
"Find out if the transfer rules apply to you"
Figure out if you’re a transfer
The first question you want to ask is, “Am I a transfer?” It seems fairly simple, but you need to answer this basic question before you can move forward. So, how do you figure out if you’re considered a transfer? First, we would ask several questions about the most common conditions involved in transferring from one school to another. We call these conditions transfer triggers. The triggers are important because they tell you if you’ll need to know the transfer rules. Ask yourself these questions:
1. Have you ever been enrolled full-time at a two- or four-year school in a regular academic term? (Summer does not count.)
2. Have you ever reported for practice with the regular squad?
3. Have you ever practiced or played while you were enrolled part time?
If you answered "Yes" to any of these questions, you are a transfer. That means you now need to learn the transfer rules if you still want to play your sport at your new NCAA school.
Taken from pg. 19
If you are now in a four-year school and want to transfer to another four-year school, we sometimes refer to you as a 4-4 transfer. Generally, these rules apply to you. If you transfer from a four-year school to another four-year school, generally you are not eligible to play at another four-year school until you sit out a year. But, don’t give up yet. Read this section to see if an exception can apply to you to allow you to play right away.
Rules have exceptions:
Common exceptions if you’re in a four-year school
Exceptions are applied by the new school (sometimes called the certifying school). The certifying school determines whether you are eligible to play right away without sitting out a year. The certifying school has the authority to grant exceptions, based on the conditions that we explain here.
You can use an exception during your first year of enrollment at the new school only if you are a qualifier in the Division to which you are transferring.
Note: if you are a qualifier, have signed a National Letter of Intent, and transfer during the first year after you enrolled full-time, you may have to sit out for a period of time at the certifying school, even if you meet an exception. (For more information about the National Letter of Intent program, go to Page 27.)
a. If you are a partial qualifier or a nonqualifier, you must spend at least one academic year in residence before you are allowed to use an exception.
b. You cannot use an exception if you are sitting out a year of residence at your current school.
Only qualifiers are allowed to use exceptions during the first year after they enroll at the new school.
Exceptions for Divisions I and II
If this is your first transfer...
If you have never transferred before from a four-year school, you might be able to use the one-time transfer exception to play right away at a Division I or II school.
To use this exception, you must:
1. Be playing a sport other than basketball in Division I, men's ice hockey in Division I or football in Division I. Note that in football you may be eligible to use this exception if:
a. You transfer from a Football Bowl Subdivision (formerly Division I-A) school to a football championship subdivision (formerly Division I-AA) school and have at least two seasons of competition remaining; or
b. You transfer from a football championship subdivision (formerly I-AA) school that offers athletics scholarships to a football championship subdivision (formerly Division I-AA) that does not offer athletics scholarships.
Note: If you do not qualify for this exception due to any of the conditions in Subsection 1 above, you may be able to use the exception if you were not recruited by your first four-year school and have never received an athletics scholarship.
Important Note: If you play Division I baseball, you will not be eligible to use this exception after August 1, 2008.
1. Be in good academic standing; are
2. Making progress toward your degree;
3. Have been considered eligible if you had stayed in your first school; and
4. Have a written release agreement from your first school saying that it does not object to your receiving an exception to the transfer residence requirement."
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I would like to note that later in the document there is a chapter on important definitions. The word
release
does not appear in there except for Div. III athletes who may "self-release" themselves and all student-athletes must get a "student release form" that authorizes the new university to have access to their H.S. grades.
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Last edited by Todd Vennis on April 2, 2009; edited 4 times in total
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
John Joyce added to this discussion on April 2, 2009
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In sports like basketball, where numerous coaching changes are made yearly, this comes up a lot. Most of the time a school will release players from an NLI if a coaching change is made. They do not have to. It doesn't happen as frequently in wrestling so there really is no precedent set, but I would bet money on it that most schools would let a kid out as it is the same athletic department making the decisions for basketball and wrestling.
However, I doubt Sam White wants out. I know this is just forum discussion though...
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
Bill Splete added to this discussion on April 3, 2009
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This subject should be very simple. A student getting an athletic scholarship is no different from a student getting a grant from an institution for good grades or a talent in the arts/sciences. If a non athlete decides at the very last minute or during the school year that the paticular school is not for them it does not stop them from going to another school that may offer the same financial grant. Why are athletes not a loud to change schools at the end of semesters or years if the school is not what they thought it would be. The scolarship is a reward for success in high school and an expectation of future success. I don't want to hear that the school has invested all this time and effort into this student, it's an unfair contract for the athlete and should be looked into by some independent group. I personally signed with indiana university when bill sherr was there and in the summer he left and they got duane goldman, and we never saw eye to eye and that had to do with my maturity level. It angered me about the change but that university is second to none. I believe based on what I know of those guys there at the time. macfarland and goldman, they would have let me out of any letter of intent, because they as the university would have done. put the athlete above the university! Duane goldman and Joe are tough competitors but they will always pick the athletes future. They know the big picture. Indiana university has always to my knowledge given an athlete 5 years on there scholarships and you never loose it unless your grades slip. That is were I fell in. The Virginia Tech situation angers me because brands was able to leave his contract but not the athletes, riduculous, it's not as if brands had to sit out a year. they should call letters of intent, binding non competes becuase that is what they are. Look at the language and penalties. sorry but this subject gets under my skin.
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Discussion Topic: College coaching shakeups
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 4, 2009
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"Most of the time a school will release players from an NLI if a coaching change is made. They do not have to It."
----- u right, no they don't. As Hank clarified my memory, Virginia Tech only released One wrestler to trf to Iowa, Billy Murphy, and that was only because it was revealed that his L of I wasnt actually signed by his guardian.
btw, to add more to a fairly complex subject,
there are different rules
about getting out of a L of I for Revenue sports like basketball than there are for Non-revenue sports like Wrestling.
Bill,
good perspective from you-- yep, as has been often pointed out, on TV too, that athletes cant leave but coaches can. i can see why would be a sore subject with you.
But really both can leave, but often not without penalty, different penalites however. And since the L of I is considered a commitment with an institution, not a specific coach, the L of I is binding unless released. U are right, doesnt seem fair, but i can see why NCAA does it this way in their best interests.
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