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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Steve Lester added to this discussion on August 10, 2009
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There has been a lot of references, here and there, about Iowa style wrestling. IMO, conduct of their coaches and wrestlers leaves something to be desired. It's as if winning and sportsmanship are mutually exclusive.
By contrast, the Ohio Falcons team wrestling in the Disney Duals won the sportsmanship award and ended up with the best showing among Ohio teams in the all-star district division.
Even more impressive was the showing of Ohio's junior dual team which took both the first place trophy AND the sportsmanship award.
That's how you do it.
Sorry for not being timely, meant to post this before. But, boards are slow right now, so here you go.
Discuss.
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on August 10, 2009
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Let's be clear here. When you say "Iowa style" are you talking about college level or ALL levels. Did the high school kids behave the same way as their college counterparts? I ask because I coach out here in Iowa and know first hand that sportsmanship is heavily stressed and exercised. Just looking for some clarification and wanting to ensure we are comparing apples to apples here.
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on August 10, 2009
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That's awesome that the two Ohio teams won the sportsmanship awards and it is important to point out that type of thing.
That said, a positive of one team does not necessitate a negative of another.
Sportsmanship is sportsmanship. It is great to be known for good sportsmanship but it is not specific to Ohio alone. It is something that every style of wrestling can and should have.
There is a huge disconnect between what one program (the University of Iowa) does and what an entire state does. Remember, Iowa State University is a perennial top five program, too. There are some parts of the so-called "Iowa style" that people like, there are some parts that people don't like. The term definitely refers to the University of Iowa's style.
As to the line between sportsmanship and winning being blurred... yes, it does not need to be like that.
Colt Sponseller is a great example of how to act on and off the mat. He's tenacious, successful and is a classy kid.
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Steve Lester added to this discussion on August 10, 2009
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Mr. Taylor,
This is probably the first time I have written the specific phrase "Iowa style". Up to now I have only seen it used, and not always in the context of U of Iowa alone. Most who have used the phrase don't define it. I come away thinking (rightly or wrongly) that it describes combativeness on and off the mat, with a fair measure of disrespect thrown in. I agree that it would mostly refer to U of Iowa.
I thought it extremely significant that the NCAA took action after the wrestling championships. Some few expressed surprise or dismay, but otherwise there has been no discussion about it. It might have been something that was building in the minds of NCAA officials; the action aimed at both Metcalf and Iowa, though only Metcalf was named. I also wouldn't be surprised if there were some private communications attached to that action which we fans will never know about. I'm not normally a pot-stirrer, but it is what it is.
Dan,
Sure everyone should emphasize sportsmanship. Some programs will be more successfull than others getting it across.
Also, not much was said about the two Ohio teams' significant achievement which is a shame. What wrong with setting a high bar for both skilled wrestling and sportsmanship and establishing it as a hallmark of Ohio wrestlers?
Call it OHIO STYLE.
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on August 10, 2009
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Steve,
I agree that more should have been made about the sportsmanship awards. (I was not even aware of them and I generally keep up with the wrestling news.) It is a testament to our coaches and our kids that Ohio teams have such outstanding sportsmanship.
If you want to call it Ohio style, that sounds good to me. It's always good to be noted for something positive like that. In fact, I think Tommy Rowlands said something about an "Ohio style" in an interview with FloWrestling last year.
My only real disagreement with you is the generalization of "Iowa style" as more than the Hawkeyes'.
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on August 10, 2009
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frankly, i don't even know how a "Sportsmanship award" would be awarded, on what basis ??
i am thinking of the tourn i'm involved in, the Ironman---- if we had such an award how would it objectively and fairly be awarded among the 33 or so Full teams (forget the partials) ??
Who'd be watching for sportsmanship, who'd be in charge of recommending a team to win the award, and on what criteria, its subjective opinion mostly ?? i have no idea.
at Junior Duals, Team Ohio had two of the really great younger coaches not only in Ohio but the nation, Erik Burnett of Elyria and Todd Haverdill of Brecksville. Whatever occured on and off the mat reflects highly on them.
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Steve Lester added to this discussion on August 10, 2009
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"Who'd be watching for sportsmanship, who'd be in charge of recommending a team to win the award, and on what criteria, its subjective opinion mostly ?? I have no idea."
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At Disney I think it was a vote of referees and at Junior Duals a vote of the coaches. Someone can correct me. Such voting seems more appropriate for dual meet tourneys, as opposed to tounaments like the Ironman,where there is a vote for an individual rather than team award.
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"At Junior Duals, Team Ohio had two of the really great younger coaches not only in Ohio but the nation, Erik Burnett of Elyria and Todd Haverdill of Brecksville. Whatever occured on and off the mat reflects highly on them."
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Awesome job.
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Last edited by Steve Lester on August 10, 2009; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Steve Lester added to this discussion on August 10, 2009
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Quote from Dan Cosimi's post:
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"My only real disagreement with you is the generalization of "Iowa style" as more than the Hawkeyes'."
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Not really a generalization. It would apply to anyone who cares to don the mantle. As I said, I had never used the phrase before. When I have seen it in the past, it wasn't always the case that it was describing the Hawkeye wrestling team itself. But most of the time it was.
Compliment or pejoration? Depends on who's speaking.
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on August 10, 2009
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Steve:
The Iowa style has been a reference to the type of wrestling practiced by Dan Gable's Hawkeye squads when they were winning 15 national titles in 21 seasons. Rex Holman has defined it before--more succintly--but my general sense is that it's all about constantly attacking and pressuring your opponent until he breaks. Brent Metcalf is probably the best current practioner of this style on Iowa's squad. Phil Keddy and Dan Erekson also do a nice job of staying aggressive and on the attack. Ironically, Colt Sponseller could easily be described as having a similar style. Certainly, his constant pressure and forward movement are designed to wear down an opponent.
Your comments on sportsmanship are another issue. There are always a few guys that are unable to appropriately handle defeat. The Hawkeyes have always been visible in this regard because they've frequently been the best and their fans the most vocal. Every negative associated with them gets magnified (especially in the internet age) because we all love to root against them.
As to the notion that Ohio kids are taught to behave better...I doubt it. I'm proud Ohio's kids were recognized for sportsmanship in two separate instances but we hardly have a monopoly on good or bad behavior. There's a certain type of wrestler who simply can't handle defeat and will often act out in frustration when he loses. Metcalf may be one example but he's hardly alone in this regard. (and if someone started a backflip on me in a title bout before time was up...I'd be plenty pissed).
I think your notion of "Ohio Style" is more wishful thinking than reality.
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Steve Lester added to this discussion on August 10, 2009
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Quote:
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"As to the notion that Ohio kids are taught to behave better...I doubt it."
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It comes from the top.
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Quote:
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"Metcalf may be one example but he's hardly alone in this regard."
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The more concerning example would be Brands gesturing at fans. And not just concerning to me. I'm not important. You have seen the Big Ten spot their football and basketball coaches on the B10 network talking about sportsmanship. Actions such as insulting or mocking fans cannot be acceptable to the powers that be. The coach is setting an example for his team (and fans).
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Quote:
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"I think your notion of "Ohio Style" is more wishful thinking than reality."
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Maybe. But, it was real enough this year. Besides it was an opportunity to give kudos to some of our coaches and wrestlers for a job well done. Yes, it had an uncharacteristly controversial flavor, but it has given some attention to an issue not discussed enough.
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Quote:
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"We all love to root against them."
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Do we? Desiring to see better sportsmanship isn't rooting against the wrestlers. What should be rooted against are blind apologists of unacceptable actions (like the USAW columnist and other "fans").
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on August 11, 2009
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Quote:
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"As to the notion that Ohio kids are taught to behave better...I doubt it."
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It comes from the top.
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Quote:
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"Metcalf may be one example but he's hardly alone in this regard."
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Remember one thing...he is a michigan guy...not an Iowa guy. You are taking the actions of a university and applying them to all high schoolers in that same state. We clearly are not comparing apples to apples here. Is it an accurate statement to say because Woody Hayes hit the Clemson player years ago all Ohio H.S. football coaches are prone to lose their temper and hit players? Of course not. I am very glad you brought the accomplishments of the Ohio team to light, but please do not do so in a manner that will degrade the fine young men in the state I now coach in. I regard Ohio wrestling as the best in the nation (accurate or not) having been raised in Ohio. I've had the pleasure of observing young men compete in both states and have seen no difference in their display of sportsmanship. The University of Iowa has earned their rep for being poor winners and even worse losers. Go ahead...dog pile them, but do not include the fine young men that compete at the high school level or below. It is a slap in their face and in the face of all the coaches who train them.
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Quote:
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"we all love to root against them."
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Do we? Desiring to see better sportsmanship isn't rooting against the wrestlers. What should be rooted against are blind apologists of unacceptable actions (like the USAW columnist and other "fans").
Ok, let me ask you this. How many US fans were booing Tom or Terry Brands when they competed in the Olympics? Reason being is because they no longer were the face of the University of Iowa. We love to hate on the UofI (I'm right there with everyone else) partly because of their antics but partly because of their insane success. Tom and Terry were not suddenly different people when they donned the USA singlet instead of the University of Iowa singlet, so if we truly are booing them (and now their wrestlers) because it is a display to see better sportsmanship why didn't that carry over to the Olympics? Fact is, we hate them until they represent us.
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on August 11, 2009
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Mike: Excellent points.
Steve--I think you've reached very far with your posts and follow up assumptions. I spent 14 years as a member of the Ohio coaching community. Almost all coaches preach sportsmanship. But it would be the height of arrogance to think this philosophy was only present in Ohio. And I concur completely with Mike's comments about how we rooted for Brands as an American but against him as coach at Iowa.
Similarly, when I wrestled and coached, everyone loved to see the Eds guys get beat. Why? Because they usually beat us. But when they're representing Ohio most of us support them staunchly. This doesn't happen so often anymore because their are more programs capable of competing with Eds. But it still happens. And everyone respects Coach Urbas and his staff as well as his wrestlers.
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on August 11, 2009
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Let's remember that Metcalf was far from the only one who acted inappropriately at the end of that match.
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on August 11, 2009
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Quote from Mike Taylor's post:
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"Ok, let me ask you this. How many US fans were booing Tom or Terry Brands when they competed in the Olympics? Reason being is because they no longer were the face of the University of Iowa. We love to hate on the UofI (I'm right there with everyone else) partly because of their antics but partly because of their insane success. Tom and Terry were not suddenly different people when they donned the USA singlet instead of the University of Iowa singlet, so if we truly are booing them (and now their wrestlers) because it is a display to see better sportsmanship why didn't that carry over to the Olympics? Fact is, we hate them until they represent us."
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In other words, people can be very hypocritical.
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Discussion Topic: Wrestling: Ohio Style
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on August 11, 2009
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"In other words, people can be very hypocritical."
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Pretty much.
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