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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Zebulin Miller added to this discussion on January 7, 2010
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Zebulin Miller added to this discussion on January 7, 2010
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Also I feel both guys will be in the 32-40 position (@ 165lbs) to qualify at the NCAA's, Micheals really needed this win. His RPI needed this win. The system rewards guys who wrestle and have quality wins week in and week out, hope Robbie can recover and qualify.
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Luke Moore added to this discussion on January 7, 2010
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I think this is one of the only problems that Ohio has. PA guys are much better on the mat than OH guys and it shows at the next level. Obviously, this is not the case with every guy, but as a whole it is true.
I think this is why guys like Lance Palmer and Jake Percival have immediate success in college because they wrestled a ton on the mat in high school.
It seems like as a whole, OH guys like to go takedowns rather than turn or ride guys and it ends up hurting them.
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on January 7, 2010
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See Mason Beckman's recent amazing run at the Ironman- great mat wrestling. All the Reynolds kids can- Matt Dunn beat Lance Palmer with mat skills. Beckman beat Hunter Stieber on mat skills. It is a huge part of the high school- college transition.
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Zebulin Miller added to this discussion on January 7, 2010
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on January 7, 2010
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There's a great video on the NCAA site that goes into detail about qualification. Zeb, you bring up a great point about RPI and strength of schedule. Very important these days.
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 7, 2010
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Perfect storm-Someone is very good at one position where the other lacks a defensive skillset from the position of engagement. It does happen quite a bit. Michaels lacks accountability for hand position off bottom, which is sad because he is very good on his feet.
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 7, 2010
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I don't care how many laps you sprint, weights you lift or hills you climb.
Technique needs to be modified and actuated through positive reinforcement until it becomes habit. Michaels first move off bottom must contain hand control; until then that position is likely to get exploited.
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Nicholas Sestito added to this discussion on January 7, 2010
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As a guy who has never wrestled, let alone wrestled in college, it's hard to see what works in college as opposed to high school. Now, I obviously realize that mat wrestling is important, but what exact aspect of mat wrestling in particular? Is there a mindset? Are there specific techniques that need to be focused on? There's always this talk on videos about techniques that don't "work" on the college level, that wrestling with the legs in becomes less effective, etc. For the experienced wrestlers out there, what is the reality of what works on the college level compared to the high school level?
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Rick Wasmer added to this discussion on January 7, 2010
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Rex , I'm glad you posted that . Hunter Stieber got to his feet a half dozen times in his loss at the Ironman , but never worked for any kind of hand control and didn't escape . It drove me crazy watching that match .
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 8, 2010
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I think the reason mat wrestling becomes so important in college, is that officials allow way too much stalling by the defensive wrestlers, without consequence for doing so. Thus you have taken the offensive wrestler's best technique and nullified it. College wrestlers are smart enough to know if they can't compete in neutral, they most likely can stall without penalty. There is no way you can wrestle 3 minutes without having some kind of scoring, unless someone is stalling. Wrestling keeps shooting itself in the foot, by continuing to support boring wrestling. Can you imagine going to a fight and seeing two boxers clinch for over 1/3 of the fight? Why is it different for wrestling?
Older wrestlers are very adept at doing this to freshman and rs freshman.
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 8, 2010
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Ken: Agree with your statements.
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 9, 2010
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Ken and Hank-
I don't think stalling is as bad as you make it out to be at the collegiate level. There is a lot of action in most matches I watch. The problem of which you speak has evolved out of rule interpretation and the role of strength.
I like that stalling is enforced largely as it is by letting the wrestlers dictate the action and keeping the referee out of the match. At the high school level, referees influence outcome way too much(JMO). There happens to be a lot more action at the high school level because position is much inferior.
Wrestlers largely evolve out of coaching and what their respective talents afford them. Some wrestlers do very little because of limits within these two parameters.
Wrestlers have traditionally cut lots of weight for no other reason than give them an edge in strength. This strength advantage afforded them opportunities against less strong opponents. Thus, allowing them to score more, which happens to be positively reinforced in terms of outcome and realized scoring opportunities.
Ockham's Razor is largely at play at the collegiate level, and the guy that wins is the guy who scores once offensively or defensively. Guys are more evenly matched than I think you are giving them credit. That is why scoring has a tendency to be low at times.
There is a disparity between freshman and seniors in terms of experience, and strength. This does play itself out but I think efforts to change this are going to be at best marginal and the experienced wrestler will figure out another way of winning, which takes into account the relative inexperience of the young wrestler and trhe advantage of strength.
High school wrestling and college wrestling are two different sports underneath the same umbrella. It takes time to learn collegiate wrestling and the different opportunities afforded under the current set of rules. You are either relying on yourself or that of your coaches to help you bridge that gap.
Doing away with riding time will materially change things, calling more stalling would change things as would other changes to the rules. I guess that I would be suspect of any major rules changes as they don't always carry with them the intended consequence.
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 9, 2010
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Ken and Hank-
I don't think stalling is as bad as you make it out to be at the collegiate level. There is a lot of action in most matches I watch. The problem of which you speak has evolved out of rule interpretation and the role of strength.
I like that stalling is enforced largely as it is by letting the wrestlers dictate the action and keeping the referee out of the match. At the high school level, referees influence outcome way too much(JMO). There happens to be a lot more action at the high school level because position is much inferior.
Wrestlers largely evolve out of coaching and what their respective talents afford them. Some wrestlers do very little because of limits within these two parameters.
Wrestlers have traditionally cut lots of weight for no other reason than give them an edge in strength. This strength advantage afforded them opportunities against less strong opponents. Thus, allowing them to score more, which happens to be positively reinforced in terms of outcome and realized scoring opportunities.
Ockham's Razor is largely at play at the collegiate level, and the guy that wins is the guy who scores once offensively or defensively. Guys are more evenly matched than I think you are giving them credit. That is why scoring has a tendency to be low at times.
There is a disparity between freshman and seniors in terms of experience, and strength. This does play itself out but I think efforts to change this are going to be at best marginal and the experienced wrestler will figure out another way of winning, which takes into account the relative inexperience of the young wrestler and trhe advantage of strength.
High school wrestling and college wrestling are two different sports underneath the same umbrella. It takes time to learn collegiate wrestling and the different opportunities afforded under the current set of rules. You are either relying on yourself or that of your coaches to help you bridge that gap.
Doing away with riding time will materially change things, calling more stalling would change things as would other changes to the rules. I guess that I would be suspect of any major rules changes as they don't always carry with them the intended consequence."
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Rex:
If we need to keep the referee from deciding the outcome, why even have him out there? When you have a 0-0 three minute period, why even have a neutral period at all? You note that with two equal wrestlers in college, strength and experience can often decide the match, but I see that the older wrestler's strength and maturity are far less the factor than him being able to stall and shutdown the better wrestler's attack. Stalling is listed in the rule book for a reason, it is often used by wrestlers and coaches. Coaches and defensive wrestlers always seem to fight a referee calling the rules for stalling, that are clearly stated in the rule book. This weakens our sport, because it bores the fans, any intelligent wrestling supporter can see that.
To me, the referee's job is two-fold; see that the wrestlers are not hurt and make sure that they wrestle within the rules. Making sure they don't stall is one of those rules.
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Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 9, 2010
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My big bone of contention with college wrestling is riding time. Fred Feeney has admitted on this forum that for the first minute of riding, top man can ride the hips. I hate the stalling call because of its subjectivity. I do agree with you that college refs do a better job with this call than hs officials. College refs don't call stalling as much because they better understand the tactics at work in a match.
Wrestling is a sport of positions--Neutral, Advantage and Disadvantage. When you successfully manuver from one position to another you are awarded points. Neutral to advantage means a TD. Disadvantage to neutral means an escape. Disadvantage to Advantage means a reversal. But in college we allow advantage without change to result in one point. The wrestler in the advantage position should only score when he puts his opponent in a 4th position--Peril.
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