|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Jeff Sitler added to this discussion on January 14, 2010
|
My two cents: In my pre-meet talk in HS or college I tell the wrestlers to work at what you pick! You pick neutral, you are telling me you think you can score from that position, you pick down, you are telling me you think you can escape or reverse, you pick top you are telling me you think you can turn your opponent. Success is another issue, but you better be working to score in the position YOU PICKED! I tell them that doesn't let their opponent off the hook to try to score, but if you picked the position, I expect you to be work hard to score and if you picked the position and don't want to do anything I will hit you for stalling.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on January 14, 2010
|
Jeff,
I don't do too many duals anymore (does anyone?) so I don't do many pre-meet talks but I like your logic. Your line "Success is another issue, but you better be working to score in the position YOU PICKED! is great. I will try and remember it in the future. Only problem might be if the coach picked the position. The wrestler might think he would be better off using something else.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Jeff Sitler added to this discussion on January 14, 2010
|
I never ask the coach. It says the wrestler has choice. If he chooses to look at his coach, that is also his choice. My favorite looks are when the coach yells and signals one thing and the wrestler picks something else. The coach yells at me and I say, HIS CHOICE.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Jeff Sitler added to this discussion on January 14, 2010
|
Jim, I have had in the past a 3x5 card taped to the back of my rule book for my "pre-meet" talks. This way I always say the same thing to both teams.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on January 15, 2010
|
Jeff,
I have been making the "speech" for so many years that I know what I will say. This was just an angle that hadn't occurred to me. I do tell them that they are responsible for their choice but to look to the coach if they aren't sure. After all, I don't have to answer to him.
I, like you, never look at the coach and make the wrestler tell me what he wants. I can hear the coach. The funniest one I can remember is once when I had a 285 want to choose top but his coach makes him take the bottom. The kid says to me "I don't know about this". The period starts and the kid gets put on his back, and stuck, right away. I guess the kid knew best.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Jeff Sitler added to this discussion on January 15, 2010
|
Jim
I have another one I use, and I can't remember where I heard it first.
4H for stalling Head, Hands, Hips, Heals... if they aren't moving, you are stalling, if 3 of 4 aren't moving you are stalling, 2 of 4 aren't moving, you better be on bottom and being ridden hard.
Jeff
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 16, 2010
|
|
Quote from Rex Holman's post:
|
|
"Ken-
Actually, Kenny's match with Sunderland was one of the first associations I made since I am dialoguing with you. There is quite a bit going on with what happened in Kenny's case. I don't remember it per se but I know enough about it to make quality inferences that provide explanation to the outcome.
At the National duals, Kenny beat Sunderland handily. I think you need to look at that match a little closer. I believe from memory that Kenny scored a 4-5 pt move at the end of the first period off a Sunderland attempt. Sunderland was then forced to take on added risk to which Kenny put the kibosh on and capitalized. Kenny was very good with a lead and had good defensive skills. Anyway, the outcome was onesided, which may lead you to believe that Kenny would have a similar outcome next time around. Not so.
As a result of the match, The PSU coaching staff was forced to assess the situation and give Troy the best advice available for an improved outcome. Here is my make believe dialogue between Coach Lorenzo and Sunderland expressed in my terms
Lorenzo:You can't take a bad shot against a quality opponent and expect to win. Do you want to wrestle in the National Finals?
Sunderland:Yes
Lorenzo:I ask that you only take good shots and if that means limiting your positions of engagement, then so be it. Don't take a bad shot but be active in your attempts and if something presents itself, take it.
Sunderland:Ok, I can do that.
I suspect that there was a lot of standing around in Kenny's semifinal as I remember Coach Jordan commenting on it. This would lead me to believe that there was stalling involved on both wrestlers. Kenny did not typically push people all over the mat but would explode and score points in bunches when he chose to engage. This is problematic as there will be fewer opportunities to score and fatigue will not be a factor in the match. Hence, the better wrestlers will maintain position longer. If there is no loss of position, no scoring. It will be left up to the officials or some overtime criteria. With the score being 2-1, I am wondering what Sunderland's points were. 1 pt escape and 1 pt riding (the hips?) time
Now, you may say that limiting your engagement is stalling, however, I don't believe it to be as long as you are engaging to improve position and work towards the td. This is a concept that was foreign to me in my college years. There was one modality and that was to attack. But that leaves a huge gap of wrestling of which is not developed.
As far as confidence goes, it is a function of the position of engagement and to the degree which you are comfortable and proficient. If you are unable to engage those positions, your confidence will likely be impacted or said another way, when you are looking for an explanation to an outcome, you are likely to manufacture the lack of confidence as the reason for your inability.
It is unfortunate that match went the way it did. But with a couple of adjustments and different training emphasis, Kenny would have won as Troy wrestled his best and smartest match to beat Kenny."
|
Rex:
Close, actually each wrestler had an escape and and Troy was given a stalling point to win. I do not remember but one legitimate shot, Kenny hit a double at the edge of the mat with about 10 seconds. One of those situations where you can get a score or not get one, unfortunately he didn't as they were called out. Your observations on the coaching, I would guess to be pretty close, in the duals Kenny threw Troy twice with underhook throws from tie ups. In the NCAA semis, Troy keep moving and would not engage, as you know Kenny was cutting a lot of weight after the coaches had him drop from 158# and showed little offense. I think the biggest factor may have been not having Ken Chertow in his corner, Ken had been in his corner all year, but wrestling a PSU wrestler the coaches decided not to use Ken for this match. Ken was able keep Kenny attacking, something he really needed in this match. My point is both wrestlers were stalling, Kenny from weight cutting fatigue and Troy from strategy to win, if the official had made them wrestle earlier, who knows what the results would have been, but I can tell you it was a very boring match to watch.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 17, 2010
|
Ken-
Kenny made a sacrifice for the team by cutting to 150; I know that he wanted to wrestle 158 that season. The coaching staff asked a lot of him. It is tough to wrestle when you physically don't feel good. Chertow was good at getting in your ear and motivating the best out of an athlete. I would like to know the thought procession that went into coaches in the corner. Ultimately the coach that can stimulate the wrestler to the right degree and has the communication and relationship est'd should be in the corner. I don't know the relationship Chertow hade with Sunderland and whether that played a role in the decision. As for stalling, in the semifinals of the NCAA, Kenny got dinged which was the decisive factor in the match. It sucks and is water under the bridge and the best we could do is evaluate it and learn. I would be interested to know what criteria Sunderland met in order to receive a stalling call. Was it luck, strategy, situation, Eastern officiating, etc?
Rex
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 18, 2010
|
|
Quote from Rex Holman's post:
|
|
"Ken-
Kenny made a sacrifice for the team by cutting to 150; I know that he wanted to wrestle 158 that season. The coaching staff asked a lot of him. It is tough to wrestle when you physically don't feel good. Chertow was good at getting in your ear and motivating the best out of an athlete. I would like to know the thought procession that went into coaches in the corner. Ultimately the coach that can stimulate the wrestler to the right degree and has the communication and relationship est'd should be in the corner. I don't know the relationship Chertow hade with Sunderland and whether that played a role in the decision. As for stalling, in the semifinals of the NCAA, Kenny got dinged which was the decisive factor in the match. It sucks and is water under the bridge and the best we could do is evaluate it and learn. I would be interested to know what criteria Sunderland met in order to receive a stalling call. Was it luck, strategy, situation, Eastern officiating, etc?
Rex"
|
Rex:
I've talked to Chertow many times about the decision and he did not know why the decision was made, but it was not something he had requested. As for the stalling, I could never complain about the call, because both Kenny and Troy were doing nothing offensively. I feel it was good strategy by the PSU staff to stall, get a break in regulation or send the match into overtime. It worked for them and thus was a good plan. Troy and Kenny were both warned early in the match and both could have been hit with additional warnings many times latter in the match, Kenny was just the unfortunate one to get the second. In wrestling you never want to leave the decision to chance, you control the outcome.
You are right about Kenny wanting to wrestle 158# that year, the weight cutting for his four years of college wrestling was taking a toll on his body. Kenny was also very confident he could win at 158#, the finals that year were Smith from Oklahoma State and Miller from ASU, Kenny had beaten Miller twice that year at Las Vegas and the Midlands.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 18, 2010
|
Ken-
I knew Kenny beat Ray twice and I like the match up with Pat Smith as long as Kenny could neutralize Smith's low attack. One thing in Kenny's favor was that Kenny could throw anyone especially they had never tied up with him before. Ryan almost unseated Smith the year before in the NCAAs and Smith while seemingly unbeatable could have have succumbed to the right match against the right opponent.
Coaching is as much an art as it is a vocation. Noticing the subtleties and acting on them takes a keen awareness, intelligence and courage. It sounds like Chertow by all accounts should have been in the corner. That bugs me as I use to take everything that the elite and established said as fact. The truth is you still have to pick through the roar as there are a lot of faulty inferences from other's experience.
As far as the Sunderland outcome goes; we actually have an evolution from that point forward in 1992. It is more clear when officials call stalling in a collegiate match and it is not as an ambiguous decision. Thus, coaches can teach their kids how not to get dinged for stalling. Officials are more likely to let the wrestlers determine the outcome themselves rather than be the rainmaker. Wrestlers need to keep their feet moving and engage in handfighting towards openings. This does not constitute stalling nor does it necessarily ensure scoring. Failure to do so, constitutes stalling. Kenny may have gotten into trouble by relying to heavily on his over/under and Troy evaded that maneuver but was able to stay busy. Again, I would really like to see that match.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: The Importance of Mat Wrestling In College
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on January 18, 2010
|
|
Quote from Rex Holman's post:
|
|
"Ken-
I knew Kenny beat Ray twice and I like the match up with Pat Smith as long as Kenny could neutralize Smith's low attack. One thing in Kenny's favor was that Kenny could throw anyone especially they had never tied up with him before. Ryan almost unseated Smith the year before in the NCAAs and Smith while seemingly unbeatable could have have succumbed to the right match against the right opponent.
Coaching is as much an art as it is a vocation. Noticing the subtleties and acting on them takes a keen awareness, intelligence and courage. It sounds like Chertow by all accounts should have been in the corner. That bugs me as I use to take everything that the elite and established said as fact. The truth is you still have to pick through the roar as there are a lot of faulty inferences from other's experience.
As far as the Sunderland outcome goes; we actually have an evolution from that point forward in 1992. It is more clear when officials call stalling in a collegiate match and it is not as an ambiguous decision. Thus, coaches can teach their kids how not to get dinged for stalling. Officials are more likely to let the wrestlers determine the outcome themselves rather than be the rainmaker. Wrestlers need to keep their feet moving and engage in handfighting towards openings. This does not constitute stalling nor does it necessarily ensure scoring. Failure to do so, constitutes stalling. Kenny may have gotten into trouble by relying to heavily on his over/under and Troy evaded that maneuver but was able to stay busy. Again, I would really like to see that match."
|
Rex:
The sad thing is, Kenny did not need the over/under attack, he just felt more comfortable in it for most of his set-ups, but his go to move was always his double leg blast. When he needed a score the double was the move he was comfortable using and it was hard to defend against.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
