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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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state tourn day one is 10 mats, not 8 that u used in your figures, Joe.
but if 64 is still too much for one class, then emulate NJ, could have 48 state qualifiers (like we have now) in one class with 16 first round Byes awarded based on district placing.
u can try to prove it cannot be done, Joe-- but it can be done sensibly and fairly if Ohio wanted to do it.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Joe Caprino added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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I didn't know Ohio ran 10 mats. I have never been to their state finals. 10 mats is a lot more feasible than 8 in both regards to 48 or 64 state qualifiers. In my rough calculations adding two more mats takes off 5 hours of wrestling approximately.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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yes Ohio starts wrestling on 10 mats at 3 PM Thursday, so theres time to move the event up on Thursday to accomodate more state quals than the current 48 (3 Div at 16 each).
in fact Ohio wrestles on 10 mats all day Friday too, up until the evening Semifinal session.
so yes, it can be done, pehaps with 64 or for sure it can be done with 48 state quals in one class. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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Gary,
This is really beside the point but... I was talking about Johnny Doe being a freshman this year, so Young and Dronzek would be here but Harris and Gross wouldn't.
With all other factors being equal, a D1 public school has a big advantage over a D3 public school because of sheer numbers. As we all know, all other factors are definitely not equal. Thus you have a big difference between D1 public school Euclid and D1 public school Wadsworth. That, however, does not negate the numbers issue between big and small schools.
This is and always has been a hotly debated topic and on such things most of the time people just have to agree to disagree.
And by the way, your son has worked with some of my wrestlers at the Beachwood open mats. He's a good kid. I wish we had been able to go up to Beachwood more often. Hopefully we will this off-season. Coach Bentley does an awesome job there.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Josh Lowe added to this discussion on February 17, 2010
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I know this is extraneous but to call Vermont a single-class state is a joke. All six New England states have tournaments that feed into their ultimate season-ended, the New England Regional. That is the state level tournament I use for those six states.
We're also running full double in Ohio. New Jersey has some sort of "carry system" in place as well. Indiana has an umbrella system of sorts - first round (of 16) losers CANNOT place, quarterfinal losers up to fifth, semifinalists guaranteed top four.
Full D-E also makes things take more time -- though I'm 100% for it (that's a different conversation).
In terms of class wrestling, I'm for it. If we go to a team state model, can go four classes there and then two class the bracket tournament with 32-man.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 18, 2010
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Quote from Dan Cosimi's post:
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"Gary,
This is really beside the point but... I was talking about Johnny Doe being a freshman this year, so Young and Dronzek would be here but Harris and Gross wouldn't.
With all other factors being equal, a D1 public school has a big advantage over a D3 public school because of sheer numbers. As we all know, all other factors are definitely not equal. Thus you have a big difference between D1 public school Euclid and D1 public school Wadsworth. That, however, does not negate the numbers issue between big and small schools.
This is and always has been a hotly debated topic and on such things most of the time people just have to agree to disagree.
And by the way, your son has worked with some of my wrestlers at the Beachwood open mats. He's a good kid. I wish we had been able to go up to Beachwood more often. Hopefully we will this off-season. Coach Bentley does an awesome job there."
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Dan, thanks for the kind words about Chris.
As you probably know Beachwood does have a freestyle club in the spring, and when this is over they run open mats every Tuesday evening. Coach Bentley does do a great job, and always seems to take a personal interest in all of the boys who walk into his room. If you ever see me walk in, or out, with Chris please take a minute to introduce yourself.
Good luck to your team this weekend.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on February 20, 2010
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What are we talking about here, inflating egos of wrestling fans or doing what's best for Ohio wresling. Last time I heard anything about Ohio wrestling, most wrestling fans consider it to be the best or second best wrestling state in the Nation. Ohio's state wrestling tournament is always one of the most attended events in wrestling. So why would we want to change the success of a sport that is dying after high school? To prove that many young athletes are not good enough to be state champions or state placers? Makes no sense to me.
Three divisions allow more collegiate opportunities for Ohio wrestlers, which is a good thing for Ohio wrestlers. Stating that fewer wrestlers would be champions or placers is quite obvious, since we would cut out 2/3 of them. How many four time or multiple time chaimpions would there now be? There is a good chance there would be no four timers and the list of multiple timers would be much smaller. What would that do to Ohio wrestling history and how would that make Ohio wrestling any better?
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bill Watson added to this discussion on February 20, 2010
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Ken
I respectfully disagree
The system wouldn't inflate ego's it would promote competition, a reason, in my humble opinion, to promote the sport. As for four time state champions who cares, the tougher competition would create better Ohio wrestlers. As for size I agree to an extent. I coached at a small school, Wellsville, in the OVAC for 4 years. I will use the OVAC as a prime example. Alot, of schools of various sizes, team race split up into 4 groups, and "kids"in the valley live for it. I think that same approach would do well for the state of ohio.
I guess what im trying to say is, aren't we attempting to prepare these young boys for either college and or life. In life, being from a small town doesn't hold any advantages, small colleges can recruit anyone as can big Universities, why not give every kid ample opportunity to earn scholarship money?
With 64 man bracket at state there is more qualifiers just less placers, I think that would grow the state tournament, while promoting larger team races.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on February 21, 2010
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Quote from Bill Watson's post:
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"Ken
I respectfully disagree
The system wouldn't inflate ego's it would promote competition, a reason, in my humble opinion, to promote the sport. As for four time state champions who cares, the tougher competition would create better Ohio wrestlers. As for size I agree to an extent. I coached at a small school, Wellsville, in the OVAC for 4 years. I will use the OVAC as a prime example. Alot, of schools of various sizes, team race split up into 4 groups, and "kids"in the valley live for it. I think that same approach would do well for the state of ohio.
I guess what im trying to say is, aren't we attempting to prepare these young boys for either college and or life. In life, being from a small town doesn't hold any advantages, small colleges can recruit anyone as can big Universities, why not give every kid ample opportunity to earn scholarship money?
With 64 man bracket at state there is more qualifiers just less placers, I think that would grow the state tournament, while promoting larger team races."
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In that case, then why aren't states with one division tournaments, more competitive with Ohio wrestling and why are their tournaments attended by fewer fans? Ohio has more interest because more wrestlers have a chance to place, with fewer placers the latter sessions would have fewer fans in attendance. Each division has a potential of one champion for every 170 wrestlers (less than 0.58%) and less than 4.71% to be a placer, those odds are extremely high against placing. With one division the odds of being a champion drop to 0.20% and placer drops to 1.57%. Extremely low odds to be a champion either way.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on February 21, 2010
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Quote from Bill Watson's post:
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"Ken
I respectfully disagree
The system wouldn't inflate ego's it would promote competition, a reason, in my humble opinion, to promote the sport. As for four time state champions who cares, the tougher competition would create better Ohio wrestlers. As for size I agree to an extent. I coached at a small school, Wellsville, in the OVAC for 4 years. I will use the OVAC as a prime example. Alot, of schools of various sizes, team race split up into 4 groups, and "kids"in the valley live for it. I think that same approach would do well for the state of ohio.
I guess what im trying to say is, aren't we attempting to prepare these young boys for either college and or life. In life, being from a small town doesn't hold any advantages, small colleges can recruit anyone as can big Universities, why not give every kid ample opportunity to earn scholarship money?
With 64 man bracket at state there is more qualifiers just less placers, I think that would grow the state tournament, while promoting larger team races."
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Last edited by Ken Ramsey Sr. on February 22, 2010; edited 2 times in total
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Bill Watson added to this discussion on February 21, 2010
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One would like to believe Ohio has a good turnout for their state tournament based on the level of competition. By adding 16 quality kids to each tourney that will only increase. Along with would most likely be 224 more sets of friends and parents. As for numbers, I don't think you can use other statesto debate Ohio's turnout. Ohio has a strong following and isa frontrunner for all americans each year behind PA. I don't think it matters not whatI have to say, for I have no influence. only an opinion.
Ken I apologize if my last comment came out as an attack on you, it wasn't intended in that manner
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on February 22, 2010
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Quote from Bill Watson's post:
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"One would like to believe Ohio has a good turnout for their state tournament based on the level of competition. By adding 16 quality kids to each tourney that will only increase. Along with would most likely be 224 more sets of friends and parents. As for numbers, I don't think you can use other statesto debate Ohio's turnout. Ohio has a strong following and isa frontrunner for all americans each year behind PA. I don't think it matters not whatI have to say, for I have no influence. only an opinion.
Ken I apologize if my last comment came out as an attack on you, it wasn't intended in that manner"
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Opinions are not attacks, no offense taken.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on February 23, 2010
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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""With 336 state placers it gives more recognition to the kids and opens them up to many opportunities beyond high school"
But you run the risk of cheapening the value of that recognition. Anytime there is too much of something its value diminishes. A basic economic principle that might apply here as well."
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"It's value" is only cheapened in the minds of some adults -- not in the minds of the athletes.
Dan -- unless you've lived the life of a wrestling coach at a small school for quite a few years, it is hard to truly appreciate. I had 18 kids on my Mechanicsburg team this year. This is the most we've every had -- and of those 18, ZERO were one sport athletes and only TWO didn't participate in three sports. We generally graduate around 60 students per year. The life in my room is much different that the life in an Oregon Clay room where the number of wrestlers that came out for their team was approximately equal to 80% of the boys in our entire high school.
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Last edited by Brady Hiatt on February 23, 2010; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on February 23, 2010
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"And why should it --in general-- be easier to get to state and place at state in a small school, what justification ????"
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Numbers. Sheer numbers make it that way.
Bob, you can compare this, in a way, to any sport. Why are the small divisions teams generally worse that then large division's teams? Less athletes to choose from. In football, if you took the best 34 football players from almost any DI program and lined them up against the 34 football players that came out for the team in most DV and DVI programs, it's not even close.
In fact, if you take the best player from every DI and DII football program and compared (or lined them up) vs. the best players from every DV and DVI program, again, it's not going to be close. There are some exceptions for the small schools -- but the overall %'s wouldn't be close.
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Discussion Topic: I have often wondered... why does high school wrestling have divisions?
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on February 23, 2010
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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""With 336 state placers it gives more recognition to the kids and opens them up to many opportunities beyond high school"
But you run the risk of cheapening the value of that recognition. Anytime there is too much of something its value diminishes. A basic economic principle that might apply here as well."
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"It's value" is only cheapened in the minds of some adults -- not in the minds of the athletes.
Dan -- unless you've lived the life of a wrestling coach at a small school for quite a few years, it is hard to truly appreciate. I had 18 kids on my Mechanicsburg team this year. This is the most we've every had -- and of those 18, ZERO were one sport athletes and only TWO didn't participate in three sports. We generally graduate around 60 students per year. The life in my room is much different that the life in an Oregon Clay room where the number of wrestlers that came out for their team was approximately equal to 80% of the boys in our entire high school."
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Brady, I agree with that. But that is primarily due to kids not having the perspective of adults.
And I was responding to a post where it was said that this would make the champs more "valuable" or marketable to potential colleges. However, colleges are coached and recruited for by adults who would recognize the cheapened nature of the titles.
No doubt a state championship is a state championship nonetheless, and are never easy to achieve. But it is just common sense that the more there is of something the less value any one of them have.
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