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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on November 11, 2010
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my 2 cents, ive been following st Eds CLOSE since they became a power in late 70s, over THIRTY years-- i live close & have been to many practices over the years, ive known Urbas well, ive known st Eds very well.
their system is built on:
...tradition
...hard work
...loyalty
...wrestling most of the year, not just Nov to March. Alot freestyle & Greco.
...belief that those who do things THEIR WAY will succeed.
...of course they get talent other schools dream of, no doubt--st Eds has that advantage-- but st Eds attracts kids who BUY INTO the st Eds way.
And Fact is they changed their style after Howard Ferguson's untimely death in 1989 from a take-em-down, kick-em-out style, using the spiral ride on top to pin-- st Eds changed to a more varied tough on top mat wrestling using legs.
I think 2 MAJOR things happened after 1989:
...John Heffernan brought his IOWA INFLUENCE in.
...when st Eds started wrestling BLAIR regularly, that changed things too.
Blair has a VERY sophisticated COLLEGE style with their handfighting, pummeling, and tie ups. Blair is always great on top like velcro with the chicken wing and the cross leg Turk. Once Ohio teams saw Blair at the Ironman starting in 1995, that changed Ohio wrestling a bit too. I KNOW it changed st Eds.
Re ACADEMICS, Greg Urbas puts in countless hours, he calls wrestlers at home when they miss practice, he follows their academics, he really cares. Urbas cannot be replaced. And at st Eds its THEIR WAY or the highway.
A national dynasty going into its FOURTH decade, that is phenomenal. Even with the private school advantage, st Eds is a phenomenon. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on November 11, 2010
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Bob, I agree with what you say. But I wonder, and I have wondered about Chuck Kyle and his staff or Pat Diulus and his, take those same staffs to a 'typical' public school and let's see what they can do.
I know you did not, but let's NEVER underestimate the advantages that being able to recruit can provide a staff and a program. And let's never think recruiting does not occur.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on November 11, 2010
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GS,
i mentioned more than once that private schools can have an advantage if they are willing & able to use it, i covered that issue. But to elaborate.
A kid has to have A REASON to go to st Eds to wrestle-- the tradition and excellence of the program and coaching staff is the reason.
but a good PUBLIC school has ADVANTAGES too, like Wadsworth or Massillon Perry or St Paris Graham, all publics--- the advantages are a kid in that district can attend the school for free, his parents taxes already paid for it. and he doesnt have a long commute to st Eds or Walsh Jesuit or some other private, he can stay at home with his friends for free. Those are clear advantages.
Fact is Excellence can be found at EITHER public or private-- alot has to do with the excellence and reputation of the COACHING staff, like those of a Chuck Kyle or Pat Diulis or Mike Milkovich Sr or Jeff Jordan or John Gramuglia or Dave Riggs. In the past Tom Peters at N Olmsted and Gary Waters at Nordonia and Mike Papouris at Richmond Heights and Larry Hoon at Cleveland Heights and Harold Kester at Cleveland West and Gene Gibbons at John Marshall all had great public school programs.
Excellence can be created by COACHES and COMMUNITY working together, regardless of public or private. And now many publics have agreements -- whatever its called -- where kids from neighboring districts can attend another district school.
FACT,in PENNSYLVANIA ALMOST ALL the wrestling powers are PUBLIC: Easton, Nazareth, Northampton, Central Dauphin, Central Mountain, Canon Macmillan, Reynolds, Shikelhamy, Upper Perkiomen, Council Rock Southand Parkland, among others. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on November 12, 2010
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Yes Bob, those boys do have to have a reason, and tradition is certainly part of it. Though let's keep in mind that tradition was built at least in part by Alan Fried coming in from the East side, Sam Neider coming in from Willoughby, the Jaynes coming in from Elyria, I believe. Pretty tough to Cleveland Heights, Lakewood, or Normandy to build traditions in that manner.
Let'a also remember that a number of Catholic school athletes attend for free as well. They are NOT all paying the sticker price to attend Eds, Iggy, Regina, etc.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on November 12, 2010
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GS posts,"Let'a also remember that a number of Catholic school athletes attend for free as well. They are NOT all paying the sticker price to attend Eds, Iggy, Regina, etc."
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GS,
i have no firsthand knowledge on the subject, but i do know st Eds & st Ignatius and Walsh Jesuit will tell you they offer aid based on financial need.
And i DO KNOW families with state champs have told me they paid THE FULL FREIGHT at st Eds and at Walsh Jesuit and at St Ignatius. As i said i'm not on the inside so i'm not expert on the subject, but i know what ive been told.
Remember Field of Dreams? "build it and they will come". This is America, many parents have moved their kids from their home district for VARIOUS reasons.
Fact is right now in the Amateur Wrestling News preseason Prep 40: Seven, thats 7 of the top 10 schools including the top 3, and a huge majority of the Prep 40 are PUBLIC schools. www.amateurwrestlingnews.com
s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on November 12, 2010
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just counted them, only SIX of Amateur Wr News preseason Prep 40 nationally are PRIVATE schools-- 34 are public. So excellence can be done and is being done at public schools throughout the nation. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Lou Demas added to this discussion on November 12, 2010
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Why don't we say all top programs either recruit or parents move their children to tops schools to help theirs kids achieve wrestling success. We still need to find out what is the top reason's some of these schools produce multiple State champs, D1 AA's and other's mainly state champs.
I think we can eliminate the obvious reason's like, hard work, year round wrestling, good coaching staff, they all do that. And I am sorry, Bob, although I feel the Ironman is a premier wrestling event, SPG and St. EDs both go to the Ironman and produce a a different amount of AA's.
Pennsylvania produces many DI AA's not all coming from private schools. So the question is still, what are some schools doing that other's are not that helps them have future success and why are we not all doing it?
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on November 12, 2010
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"I think we can eliminate the obvious reason's like, hard work, year round wrestling, good coaching staff, they all do that." ---
response: i disagree with that assumption, not all are equal, one example: look at records over the last 20 years maybe even longer, will show a HUGE number of st Eds kids on the Fargo Jr and Cadet national teams compared to other power Ohio schools.
St Paris now and in their heyday Walsh Jesuit never sent the numbers to Fargo like st Eds, not close, so everyone is not doing things the same.
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"And I am sorry, Bob, although I feel the Ironman is a premier wrestling event, SPG and St. EDs both go to the Ironman and produce a a different amount of AA's." ---
response: i never said going to the Ironman will produce equal amount of AAs for everyone. i said the Ironman caused some positive change in Ohio wrestling. And i KNOW facing Blair CHANGED St EDS wrestling for the better, which is relevent since a question asked on here is what is st Eds doing that makes them so successful in producing AAs?
i repeat, 34 of AWNs preseason Prep 40 are PUBLIC. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on November 12, 2010
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I think I see an obvious correlation between programs and AAs, and that is a commitment to Fargo. St Eds, Walsh, etc, have traditionally had a serious focus on sending kids to Jr and Cadet nationals.
What does this do? Exposes kids to people from all over the country, forces kids to understand a different style of wrestling focusing on body positioning, forces kids to wrestle on the mat to be successful, and (maybe most importantly) allows them a week long training program with the other top kids in the state.
So, wrestling all year round is one thing, but attempting to qualify and wrestling in Fargo is another.
On a micro level, compare Graham and Eds. Eds's send (seemingly) 20 kids a summer to Fargo. Graham does not make this important. Aside from David Taylor.
Now, I think Graham's AAs are about to grow exponentially, and I have thoughts on why that is as well, but for the purposes of this discussion I think Fargo success equals college success.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on November 12, 2010
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"So, wrestling all year round is one thing, but attempting to qualify and wrestling in Fargo is another."
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Ethan,
yes, theres "wrestling year round" and then there's COMPETING year round which st Eds emphasizes with the Fargo thing, a kid has to wrestle in qualifers and qualify for the Ohio team-- then if he makes it he goes to camp with other commited kids and he learns firsthand what it takes to get to a higher level.
Its a COMMITMENT, and we know those who make commitments in life are often those who become the successful people.
Walsh Jesuit over the years not so much Fargo. Of course st Eds has the numbers in the room, but i recall Bill Barger being asked about it and he said "Well no one else is doing it either"-- but st Eds was and is. And st Paris has their own formula for success, Jeff Jordan's formula, he does things his way. But SPG is unique.
btw to get more info on how to qualify for a Fargo team contact USAWR Ohio vice-chairman Leo Saniuk at ljsan@adelphia.net Fact is alot of coaches and wrestlers don't know much about the opportunity. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Leo Zimmer added to this discussion on November 12, 2010
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Ethan excellent point.
Typically I hate when people point out "intangibles" as it relates to success in sports. However, in this case, I think Ethan's post speaks directly to a quality that can't be measured, coached or instilled.
At the beginning of this thread, we talked about being able to handle the academic load in college and still put the time in that it takes to AA. Well, as anyone that has been to college will tell you, there is a lot more to school than classes and books.
A kid that gives up half (or more) of his summer to wrestle in Fargo, tells me that he is committed to the sport. That winning on the mat is one of the most important things in his life, and he is willing to sacrifice to do it. He will be able to say no when his friends are going to a party. He will say no when his girlfriend wants to go to a chick flick instead of going to the weight room on a Friday night.
I guess, it is old fashioned self discipline that I'm talking about. It will make a better wrestler, pitcher, gymnast, accountant, lawyer or garbage collector.
How does that correlate to the high success rates at Eds, Walsh and Graham? As Bob P pointed out;
"their system is built on:
...tradition
...hard work
...loyalty
...wrestling most of the year, not just Nov to March. Alot freestyle & Greco.
...belief that those who do things THEIR WAY will succeed.
...of course they get talent other schools dream of, no doubt--st Eds has that advantage-- but st Eds attracts kids who BUY INTO the st Eds way. "
If kid is not willing to make wrestling the center of his life, he is not likely going to attend a school that demands that he does. And to those that DO mistakenly join one of these programs, but aren't disciplined enough, quickly fall by the wayside.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on November 12, 2010
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Fargo is a COMMITMENT, and we know those who make commitments in life are often those who become the successful people. Its hot in July, would be easier to be doing other things, doing some wrestling but Not actually competing would be much easier.
Ohio vice-chairman Leo Saniuk is at ljsan@adelphia.net He can tell you about it and give you a schedule of qualifying events. St Eds Eagle club open to all with a USA WR card teaches the Olympic styles twice a week from March to July.
And im sure there are others im not as aware of. Anyone aware of other Olympic style clubs please post the info. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on November 12, 2010
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Bob, I will tell you that the father of an Ed's wrestler when Ferguson was still there who was very new and naive to paying for school (public school background) went up to the coach after practice one day with his tuition bill in hand to ask how he should pay it. The coach took the bill from him, put it in his pocket, and told him he would never receive one again. And he never did.
And I will tell you about an eventual state track champ at Iggy who started there as a football player, what he was offered by both Iggy and Benedictine in 8th grade, chose Iggy, and never paid a dime in four years.
Bob, how many of those 7 public schools have open enrollment? And, while we're at it, what percentage of state champs at Wadsworth and Graham have been lifetime residents of those public school districts AND attened those districts for Kindergarten straight through to high school? THAT is what most of America thinks of when they think of a public school and a public school student.
And also, many American parents are pretty whacky where their kids' athletics are concerned. I have five children who have been varsity athletes, I know first-hand. I don't get my info from others.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on November 12, 2010
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GS,
Has st Eds or Ignatius or Walsh Jesuit ever been found guilty by OHSAA of anything? not to my knowledge.
we ALL KNOW & acknowledge privates & open enrollment schools have an advantage, since we all know that why beat a dead horse???
34 of AWNs Prep 40 are public, so excellence is being achieved out there somewhere in America by publics. In PA the publics rule wrestling and always have, whats their formula for success? must be doing something right.
good Publics have the advantage, they are free-- they have the advantage WHEN they have a very good coaching staff and community support. If they don't have a good staff and community support, thats NOT st Eds or Ignatius or Walsh J's fault. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on November 12, 2010
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OJ was never found guilty of anything either. I can tell you what I know first-hand from talking to and knowing parents who have had offers and received tuition. Do you really think many if any of the parents you spoke with, if they were receiving tuition under the table, would tell you? Doesn't mean they were, but let's not be so naive at our ages.
Now that you have stated that privates have an advantage then yes this horse is dead.
Of course some/many publics do things right, but not many of them can draw obviously gifted wrestlers from Univerity Heights, Willoughby, and Elyria to their schools.
Now again, how many of the publics in that top-40 have open enrollment? Or, in other words, are quasi-privates.
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