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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 3, 2010
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The key to the answer is to pay attention to the AD's instructions. This mythical AD wants you to focus on recruiting from schools that are most likely to yield AA candidates. So, how does one determine which of these schools is most likely to do so? Well, one obvious answer is to see which schools have done it often in the past.
On this website, several inches above this line of print, is a Records tab. Click on it, and the answer to this question is available to all. Just count the # of D1 AA's each of these schools has produced historically and that is your likely winner--unless something substantial has changed.
So, let's count AA's by school since 2000. I'll list a bunch (not necessarily the ones I gave you).
St Eds: 21
Walsh: 9
Bishop Ready: 5
Mass. Perry: 5
Amherst Steele: 4
Solon: 3
Oak Harbor: 3
Chanel: 3
Graham: 3
CVCA, Wadsworth, Groveport Madison, Mayfield, Mentor: 0
The big surprise is how poorly Graham compares to Eds. Over this same eleven year span, both schools won ten state titles. Graham produced 41 state champs compared to 38 for Ed. Yet, at the collegiate level, there's no disputing the fact that Eds has outshone Graham. Also, Wadsworth, an Ohio powerhouse over the same decade, has zero. Perhaps both Graham and Wadsworth have their best talent still to come. Obviously, David Taylor looks like a multiple AA candidate.
Other schools producing at least one AA have included: Akron Firestone, Galion, Lake Catholic, Buckeye Local, Berea, Akron Springfield, Columbus Beechcroft, Aurora, Mansfield Madison, Nordonia, DeSales, Marion Harding, Field, Dayton Carroll, Pickerington, Hilliard Davidson, Kings Mill (John Velez).
Go back ten more years and further evidence exists
that Walsh and St Eds are the class of Ohio when it comes to producing AA's. From 1990-1999 these schools were also first and second. Eds produced 13 AA's while Walsh had 8.
Since Eds won their first state title in 1978, and produced their first AA in 1980, let's look at Eds during that decade as well. From 1980 to 1989, St Eds had 15 wrestlers earn D1 AA honors.
Ironically, Graham compares better to Eds during this decade when Jim and Jeff Jordan earned 5 AA honors.
Conclusions:
1) Mike "Bitter" Rodriguez is the smartest guy in cyberspace. He instantly honed in on the combo of Eds and Walsh as the correct answer and gave the right reason.
2) St Eds has no peer in Ohio when it comes to producing collegiate ready competitors who are likely to finish top 8. Given the fact that the same staff is more or less in place at Eds, as is the case at other programs to whom they're compared, don't expect these results to change too much.
3) I'll touch on this in a future post, but a relatively small group of wrestlers produce AA results for a program. In spite of Eds success, it's amazing how many of their stars have never placed top 8 in college. St Eds 49 AA placements have been earned by only 21 different wrestlers. 17 of those wrestlers were multiple AA's. Only four wrestlers in St Eds history have only been single time AA's. I wonder if Greg Urbas even knows that?
4) Four St Eds wrestlers have won national titles (out of 49 AA honors earned). St Eds wrestlers have been almost as likely to win a national title as they have to AA only once.
5) There's more to college wrestling than earning AA honors. A lot of Ohio kids have worked hard and performed with distinction at the collegiate level. The fact that they've not placed top 8, shouldn't diminish the worth of their collegiate wrestling experience nor cast aspersions on their high school programs. That was not my intent. I simply wanted to share what I had discovered as I found it of interest.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Roe Fox added to this discussion on November 4, 2010
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One wrestler's decision that skews the stats: if you are counting one wrestler winning multiple AAs toward the total number of AAs rather than the number of wrestlers who attained AA status (which would be the better criteria in my opinion), CVCA likely missed 4 with Lester going Greco at Northern Michigan.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Lou Demas added to this discussion on November 4, 2010
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Hank,
Very well thought out. I have heard coaches say we don't teach this or that technique because we are just training them to be state champions. Looks Like St. Eds. has manage very well to teach both how to be a state champ and at the same time teaching skill sets needed to succeed in college.
What would any one's thoughts on this big gap between St.Eds and Graham, in producing AA's? Does St.Eds teaches more skill sets that carry over into success in college? Does St.Eds have a wrestling culture that somewhat differs from Graham that helps them go adjust better to college wrestling? Might it even be, Graham kids did not pick the right college for them?
Interested on anyone's thoughts.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 4, 2010
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Lou: Those are great questions. I have no answers--only guesses. Let me start by saying I did not have an agenda when I looked up these numbers. I suspected St Eds would prove more successful than anyone else but had no idea of the size of the gap.
One thing that surprised me a lot was that Eds greatest success in developing AA's occurred in the last decade. I would have guessed the 1980's when Eds emerged as the most dominant program in the nation. The second thing that stood out to me was how few high school studs from any school ever manage to earn AA honors in college. My guess--and you alluded to this--is that a lot has to do with the program a wrestler chooses to attend. Certain collegiate programs have a history of producing AA's while others are not as reputable in this regard. My other theory is that St Eds wrestlers have developed more academic discipline. It may be that they are better prepared than wrestlers from many other programs at balancing the rigors of academics and athletics. But, again, that's conjecture--I have no proof of it.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on November 4, 2010
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This paints a little different picture...
Number of Individual NCAA Division 1 All-Americans by High School, 2001-2010
8 - Saint Edward High School (Lakewood, Ohio) - Hrovat, Kulczycki, Maynard, Nakamura, Bertin, M.Jayne, Lang, Palmer
4 - Walsh Jesuit High School (Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio) - Sveda, Heskett, Zupancic, Pucillo
3 - Graham High School (Saint Paris, Ohio) - Ott, C.Schlatter, D.Schlatter
2 - Perry High School (Massillon, Ohio) - Luke, D.Schlatter
2 - Saint Francis DeSales High School (Columbus, Ohio) - Preston, C.Schlatter
1 - Archbishop Henry K. Moeller High School (Cincinnati, Ohio) - Lindsey
1 - Beechcroft High School (Columbus, Ohio) - Sessley
1 - Berea High School (Berea, Ohio) - Kilgore
1 - Bishop Michael J. Ready High School (Columbus, Ohio) - Rowlands
1 - Buckeye High School (Rayland, Ohio) - Bertolino
1 - Carroll High School (Dayton, Ohio) - DiSalvo
1 - Davidson High School (Hilliard, Ohio) - Nail
1 - Elyria High School (Elyria, Ohio) - Mitcheff
1 - Galion High School (Galion, Ohio) - Fox
1 - Harvey S. Firestone High School (Akron, Ohio) - Porter
1 - Kings High School (Kings Mills, Ohio) - Velez
1 - Lake Catholic High School (Mentor, Ohio) - Becks
1 - Lake High School (Uniontown, Ohio) - Miller
1 - Madison Comprehensive High School (Mansfield, Ohio) - Yetzer
1 - Marion L. Steele High School (Amherst, Ohio) - Percival
1 - Nordonia High School (Macedonia, Ohio) - Lange
1 - Northmor High School (Galion, Ohio) - Dollaway
1 - Oak Harbor High School (Oak Harbor, Ohio) - Bergman
1 - Pickerington High School (Pickerington, Ohio) - Anderson
1 - Saint Peter L. M. Chanel High School (Bedford, Ohio) - Jaggers
1 - Solon High School (Solon, Ohio) - Penn
1 - Southview High School (Lorain, Ohio) - Mitcheff
1 - Springfield High School (Akron, Ohio) - Bolyard
1 - Sycamore High School (Cincinnati, Ohio) - Kaplan
1 - Warren G. Harding High School (Marion, Ohio) - Ratliff
1 - Wayne High School (Huber Heights, Ohio) - Ott
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on November 4, 2010
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Conclusions:
1) Mike "Bitter" Rodriguez is the smartest guy in cyberspace. "
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The greatest line ever written on these forums. ;)
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 5, 2010
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Dan: It does...except you count Dustin as a Graham wrestler. He spent his last two years at Mass Perry. By that logic, Kyle Ott would count for Dayton Wayne.
If you add Dustin's total to Graham, they'd have produced 6 AA's. It's a tricky question to answer as to who counts for what school. It's possible that all three wrestlers received their most vital training from Coach Jordan. I don't know. Generally speaking a wrestler's career gets attributed to the high school from which he graduated.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
William Danforth added to this discussion on November 5, 2010
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Hank if you look close he does count/list the wrestlers under both of their schools.
St Eds leads the way because of their one two punch of top notch academics and wrestling.
Many great wrestlers with AA ability can not cut the academics of college or are lacking the discipline required.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on November 5, 2010
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Quote from William Danforth's post:
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"St Eds leads the way because of their one two punch of top notch academics and wrestling.
Many great wrestlers with AA ability can not cut the academics of college or are lacking the discipline required."
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Agreed.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Lou Demas added to this discussion on November 9, 2010
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That sounds great at face value but if we looked all of the other AA's not from St. Ed's would we find 9 times out of 10 they all had the same high standards St. Ed's has in regards to academics?
This is really important to high school coaches who have a D1 level athlete but he knows your school does not really prepare him for D1 academics. What do you do? help him get outside tutoring,recommend he attend NIAA, D3, or at best a d2 program?
Or is there something else at going on here?
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on November 9, 2010
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Quote from Lou Demas's post:
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"That sounds great at face value but if we looked all of the other AA's not from St. Ed's would we find 9 times out of 10 they all had the same high standards St. Ed's has in regards to academics?
This is really important to high school coaches who have a D1 level athlete but he knows your school does not really prepare him for D1 academics. What do you do? help him get outside tutoring,recommend he attend NIAA, D3, or at best a d2 program?
Or is there something else at going on here?"
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Lou, the reality is by and large 'D3' academics are much more difficult than typical D1. Are there exceptions? Of course. But to say any student who is questionable for a public university should attend a small, private school is not really looking at these correctly.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Lou Demas added to this discussion on November 9, 2010
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Gary,
Maybe, I should post my question clearer. What does a coach do If a coach knows his school is not preparing his athlete for the an academic life of a D1 school. If, I recall correctly the admission standards are lower for D2,D3,NIAA college. Maybe they are lower because in a smaller school setting they will get more personal attention and can handle the rigors of college life better even if they are equal to that of a standard D1.
The question remains the same, what does a coach do? Push student athlete to go to smaller school or try to find a way to prepare him for D1 college life.
I do believe that a student who is more prepared academically may have an advantage of succeeding in achieving D1 AA status but would that enough for college coaches not to recruit schools that are not up to St. Eds standards or high coaches to recommend to their athlete go to smaller school?
And if we look at all of the D1 AA's from schools not up St.Eds academic standards and find just as many coming out of those schools, then we have to what is ask what in St.Eds coaching system better prepares them for wrestling at the D1 Level?
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on November 10, 2010
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Quote from Lou Demas's post:
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"Gary,
Maybe, I should post my question clearer. What does a coach do If a coach knows his school is not preparing his athlete for the an academic life of a D1 school. If, I recall correctly the admission standards are lower for D2,D3,NIAA college. Maybe they are lower because in a smaller school setting they will get more personal attention and can handle the rigors of college life better even if they are equal to that of a standard D1.
The question remains the same, what does a coach do? Push student athlete to go to smaller school or try to find a way to prepare him for D1 college life.
I do believe that a student who is more prepared academically may have an advantage of succeeding in achieving D1 AA status but would that enough for college coaches not to recruit schools that are not up to St. Eds standards or high coaches to recommend to their athlete go to smaller school?
And if we look at all of the D1 AA's from schools not up St.Eds academic standards and find just as many coming out of those schools, then we have to what is ask what in St.Eds coaching system better prepares them for wrestling at the D1 Level?"
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Lou, points taken. But let's remember that at a D1 school (typically large and with many majors) it is much easier to hide an athlete, or any student I suppose, in a goofball major than it is at most/all D3s (typically much smaller schools with often fewer majors and not as nearly many places to 'hide' academically).
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Leo Zimmer added to this discussion on November 11, 2010
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While academic preparation may be a factor, I'm not sure we can say it is the leading cause of Ed's/Walsh's lopsided margin in the AA category.
There are certainly schools on that list with outstanding academic reputations and very few AA's. I think it would be interesting to calculate each schools AA's as a percentage of the state champs they produced.
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Discussion Topic: The answer to "You're the Recruiter"
Lou Demas added to this discussion on November 11, 2010
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Gary,
If it is easier to hide poor student in a D1 setting in in a low academically challenging major,we must then conclude St' Eds coaching system is doing something others' are not and yet should strive to copy, if our concern is future wrestling success for our athlete.
Leo,
I think that's a great idea. If we can find out who are the most successful schools are nationwide and copy what they are doing different that gives their wrestler's the edge in achieving D1 AA status, we should strive to implement it into our programs.
I do not post as often as I used to but this is such an important issue, I don't think it should be glossed over. To me it is the same letting a wrestler keep doing something wrong because as a coach we are either to lazy to correct it or to lazy find out how to correct it.
All who post on these forum's whether they agree or disagree have one thing in common, we are passionate and concerned about the great sport of wrestling! let's figure this out.
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