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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on December 21, 2010
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MikeR,
kudos to Iowa wrestling, but that has nothing to do with Ohio St. Iowa U wrestling is a phenomenon, ohio st isn't Iowa U in wrestling and we know that. So what?
fact is wrestling is a basically a Individual sport, football is a pure Team sport, and add in the huge dif in schol numbers makes comparisons impossible.
we all know Ohio st football far more accomplished than Ohio st wrestling, but this has nothing to do with Tom Ryan whose overall record here is Outstanding even with this lousy year- Which i predicted last spring & summer, btw.
Next season 165 Garcia can compete for a high AA spot, yes he can IF his knee is ok. Logan Stieber will be back, this team will be much more experienced, will have infusion of a super recruiting class-- should be a pretty good team, imo. Not Iowa, but much better than now.
Ryan is still hungry, still working very hard, still has very high goals, this is what is important. Ohio st is still a place that attracts talent, AND the Ohio St AD still strongly supports Ryan-- as long as these thing are in place no reason for Ohio St fans to dispair. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 21, 2010
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Bob-
"This year is reminiscient of some the Hellickson years. It feels like the Bucks need someone to step up and AA in order to save face."
Actually the whole thought was two sentences and to just display one is to take out of context.
To finish in the lower half of the Big Tens and eek out 1 AA is all that was accomplished at the end of the season some years. That is painful regardless of past performance. This season could very well mimic one of those subpar performances.
I am hoping that more can be done.
and that
Ifs and buts were candies and nuts, we'd all have a very Merry Christmas. Smile everyone, it is the holidays!
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on December 21, 2010
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"This year is reminiscient of some the Hellickson years. It feels like the Bucks need someone to step up and AA in order to save face."
"Actually the whole thought was two sentences and to just display one is to take out of context."
-----------------------
ok Rex,
but in context my comment still stands, that Hellickson had alot of those years in his last decade, thats why he left.
Ryan will make his own legacy, and i think when Ryans record is reviewed years from now it will be outstanding, the best ever at Ohio St-- but life offers no guarantees, thats for sure. s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 21, 2010
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Fair enough...I just wanted what I said represented in the light it was intended.
As for the Hellickson years...
One story...It got me spinning today.
tOSU dualed Iowa at home back in I'll say 2003(I don't remember which year)
It came down to 285, T Rowlands v Mocco
Tommy lost that one, after the match I went and talked to him. I was expressing that he needed to get Mocco off his head. Coleman walks over and starts on about how he has to bait Mocco to shoot---OMG. Mentally I left the conversation at that point. Next day, I went to practice with the sole purpose of working with Tommy on the elbow pass(it is now becoming common but back 6 yrs ago not so much---I picked it up off Gutches while at the OTC)
As soon as I go over to work with Tommy, Russ beelines over there and shows him what to do from the 1970s to beat Mocco. Again, I walk away. Hellickson eventually goes about his business and I finally get a chance to help. Tommy picks it up rapidly.
Moral to the story. It should not be that hard to help someone. People that are unwilling to change or are unnaturally strong don't quite understand the subtlety of technical skills and the progressive nature of this sport.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on December 21, 2010
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Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:
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"First off, I've shied away from these posts because I know people know I'm not a fan of tOSU and reading Gary's posts over the last several months has made me see that my constant hammering of tOSU on an Ohio forum makes me look like a dick. So I'm approaching this as a guy who loves Ohio High School wrestling and has been a fan of many of the wrestlers on this team over the years.
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Quote from Scott Nicola's post:
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"Call me an optimist or homer) but I think they right the ship and finish with a couple AA this year and a reloaded lineup next year and in the future. Go Bucks!"
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Who on this team is an All American this year?
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Quote from Brad Perkins's post:
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"Coach Ryan and his staff brought excitement and hope to the Ohio State program that was not seen before."
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I don't think that's true. There was a great deal of excitment surrounding Russ Helleckson taking over the program...followed by the transfer of Mark Colman and a few great recruiting years that lead to couple top five type teams. DiSabato, Marinelli, Ramsey, Schyck, Randleman and then the transfer of Holman. I think people forget ho good those early Helleckson teams were.
Where they as close to Iowa has Coach Ryan's two runner-up teams were? No. But those Iowa teams were MUCH MUCH better than the teams they have fielded in recent times.
My point is, Both Coach Ryan and Coach Helleckson were able to come in and bring the program up very quickly to levels it had previously not attained.
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Quote from Freddy Carr's post:
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"I'm with Coach Ryan as well. I expected a down year, somewhere in the bottom half of the "B1G". You add the injuries on top of everything and this really isn't a surprise....This too shall pass."
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Here's where I run itno a little bit of a problem. Ohio State fans "expected a down year". Maybe not this far down, but regardless. Why? You have one of the top Universities in the world, great facilities, a top-notch Head coach with one of the best Assistants out there. You have the best recruiting ground in America with Ohio and PA next door, and you wrestle in the best conference. You shouldn't have "down years". You should be consistantly very good, top five often and contenders every few years. Anything else should be unacceptable.
What do you think the Ohio State faithful would do if the football team was this bad? They'd give Tressel a year or two to right the ship, but he's won a National Title and been near the top of college football (playing in BCS games) almost every year.
I'm not saying Coach Ryan should be fired. I think he's a great coach and by all accounts a man of good character. I do think that the lack of depth on this team is clearly an issue, and that the way the staff recruits depth needs to rethought. I also think, as I always have, that Ohio State loses too much blue chip talent. Ty Mitch, Jamie Clark, Zach Neibert, Brian Stephens, Jessie Dong, David Taylor, Jedd Moore, Eric Cubberly, Ben Jordan, the Thomusseit brothers, Chris Honeycutt, Dustin Kligore...the list goes on and on. I know you can't get them all, but Ohio State needs to get a lot more of them if they're going to be a consistant winner.
Finally, I think the loss of Joe Heskett and Tommy Rowlands needs to be looked at as well. Those two guys were both World Team members and top level assistants with years of experience and a solid street cred when it comes to recuiting."
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Don't shortchange yourself, your constant hammering is not the only reason.
Sorry, I thought the website is ohiowrestling.net, NOT ohiostateuniversitywrestling.net.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on December 21, 2010
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"MikeR,
kudos to Iowa wrestling, but that has nothing to do with Ohio St. Iowa U wrestling is a phenomenon, ohio st isn't Iowa U in wrestling and we know that. So what?
"
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And it never will be because people don't care enough about it.
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"fact is wrestling is a basically a Individual sport, football is a pure Team sport, and add in the huge dif in schol numbers makes comparisons impossible. "
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I'm not comparing the sports, I'm comparing the level of expectation from the fans and the university. I thought that was pretty obvious.
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"we all know Ohio st football far more accomplished than Ohio st wrestling, but this has nothing to do with Tom Ryan whose overall record here is Outstanding even with this lousy year- Which I predicted last spring & summer, btw."
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Why is Ohio State football so much more accomplished? Ohio is a better wrestling state than it is a football state. I would argue that the reason that Ohio State football is so much more accomplished is because they have to be. If they're not, they all lose their jobs. And the fact that you predicted this "lousy year" just points to how bare cupboards were when Helleckson's recruits graduated.
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"Next season 165 Garcia can compete for a high AA spot, yes he can IF his knee is ok. Logan Stieber will be back, this team will be much more experienced, will have infusion of a super recruiting class-- should be a pretty good team, imo. Not Iowa, but much better than now."
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And therein lies the problem. Ohio State fans are OK with a "pretty good team".
Also, it's my understanding that Stieber will likely take an Olympic red-shirt and Triggas will be your starter. Garcia is excellent, but you're banking on a freshman All American? And the infusion of super recruiting should be red-shirted. Next year's team will likely be better than this years squad, but not a huge step forward.
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"Ryan is still hungry, still working very hard, still has very high goals, this is what is important. Ohio st is still a place that attracts talent, AND the Ohio St AD still strongly supports Ryan-- as long as these thing are in place no reason for Ohio St fans to dispair. s/BobP"
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I don't doubt that Coach Ryan is hungry and working hard and has high goals. But, as Mr. Holman has pointed out, it's not always about that. Sometimes it's about technique and the blend of technical, mental and physical...and how to best develop the talent in the room.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Ben Golden added to this discussion on December 21, 2010
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Great points, Michael. I don't buy the excuse that "this isn't Iowa" as if we shouldn't have high expectations. At this point, Iowa is consistently excellent largely BECAUSE of those high expectations.
High expectations and hard work are probably the two most important ingredients for success in wrestling.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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MikeR,
as is your history on forums, you are SO NEGATIVE anything re Ohio st U -- we all understand you have a grudge--- ok we get it.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Brian Morrow added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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Listen to Tom Ryan interview and can say I will shut my mouth. I am 100% behind Tom in this. He is handling this as best as one can. Tom knows he has missed out on good recruits and takes all blame. I know in past I have been pretty down on him and whats going on. If you have not heard 2 part interview just take a listen.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Roe Fox added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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"Sorry, I thought the website is ohiowrestling.net, NOT ohiostateuniversitywrestling.net."
Gary, it's a free country -- and website. The post is about Ryan. You may start a new post if you wish!
I just don't see that Bob and Mike are really arguing the same thing. Bob is absolutely corret: there aren't three all-state 141s waiting to take over for C. Palmer like in football.
Mike is right that the expectations have to be just like the football teams. I'm not sure they are not among wrestling fans but the general public doesn't seem to feel that way (if it even cares about the sport). A lot of money has been invested in the TOSU program. It ought to bear fruit but isn't this year for many of the previously written reasons. If it doesn't in the next year or two then something is systemically wrong.
Ryan deserves some time to be fair. One thing I like is there seems to be no short-cutting. Look at Brands and all the second and third chances he gives come of his wrestlers. Now its discussed they are even thinking of letting multiple time loser Marion back on the team. Why? Simply to win.
Even the supposedly pristine Cael who dumped Jenkins for a lack of effort is supposedly taking on Andrew Long who was kicked off the ISU team and couldn't do what was necessary to get back on, based on reports I've read. Ok, other forums so who knows for sure?
Like Tressel, build it the right way and compete.
The problem with the PSU match was the utter pasting. For those of you who actually wrestled in college, I imagine the size of the loss was somewhat abnormal for a huge DI college that fancies itself a top caliber program. Even back-ups, let alone NQs, should be able to avoid pins and techs most of the time at that level. I would think.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"MikeR,
as is your history on forums, you are SO NEGATIVE anything re Ohio st U -- we all understand you have a grudge--- ok we get it."
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Come on Bob, you're better than that. We're on a forum, discussing Ohio State's program using facts and opinions. I'm not taking cheap shots at Ohio State or saying anything that many self described fans aren't saying.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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""Sorry, I thought the website is ohiowrestling.net, NOT ohiostateuniversitywrestling.net."
Gary, it's a free country -- and website. The post is about Ryan. You may start a new post if you wish!
I just don't see that Bob and Mike are really arguing the same thing. Bob is absolutely corret: there aren't three all-state 141s waiting to take over for C. Palmer like in football.
Mike is right that the expectations have to be just like the football teams. I'm not sure they are not among wrestling fans but the general public doesn't seem to feel that way (if it even cares about the sport). A lot of money has been invested in the TOSU program. It ought to bear fruit but isn't this year for many of the previously written reasons. If it doesn't in the next year or two then something is systemically wrong.
Ryan deserves some time to be fair. One thing I like is there seems to be no short-cutting. Look at Brands and all the second and third chances he gives come of his wrestlers. Now its discussed they are even thinking of letting multiple time loser Marion back on the team. Why? Simply to win.
Even the supposedly pristine Cael who dumped Jenkins for a lack of effort is supposedly taking on Andrew Long who was kicked off the ISU team and couldn't do what was necessary to get back on, based on reports I've read. Ok, other forums so who knows for sure?
Like Tressel, build it the right way and compete.
The problem with the PSU match was the utter pasting. For those of you who actually wrestled in college, I imagine the size of the loss was somewhat abnormal for a huge DI college that fancies itself a top caliber program. Even back-ups, let alone NQs, should be able to avoid pins and techs most of the time at that level. I would think."
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Roe, I understand that. He dragged my name into this one first. I had posted nothing in this thread previously.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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ok MikeR,
we just see it differently. Having known Ryan from his Hofstra days, i think we got a very good coach who wil be here a long time-- im grateful for that-- im looking at the big picture, not one season.
peace and merry Christmas, BobP
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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Mike-
I went back and reread your posts to see if you were in fact being negative---I don't see it, except for GS. I think you make valid points about expectations although I would ask you to qualify "people". I take people to mean coaches, fans, team members, administation. Those are the big four that matter.
Those groups are an interesting dynamic. The fans influence the administration who influence the coaches who influence the athletes.
Fans are vocal and express their influence through dollars and interaction with media outlets.
Football is a case study in itself and some of the rules that govern it carry over to olympic sports but not entirely. I think you make some good points regarding the areas which coincide.
Regarding this season being a downer. Any fan who was closely watching could see that the perfect storm was brewing for pain, btw.
It looked like the infusion of Logan Stieber and his national title run could offset any growing pains, but as with Murphy's Law, anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
I still think Paddock, Sponseller, Heflin and Magrum could do well end of season. However, they have the potential to be round of 12 or low placers(5-8), which is similar to the '97 season at tOSU minus NCAA finalist Mitch Clark. We had 3 in the round of 12 and triple dipped. Bucher, Gary and Nutter. Jeff Bucher lost top ASU, Anthony Gary lost to Pitt and Nick Nutter lost to Lehigh.
Lastly, can we eliminate taking a whole post and reposting, there is no need for that crap. Either take the time to dissect the statements and offer input or just leave it alone.
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Discussion Topic: I'm for Tom Ryan
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on December 22, 2010
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Bob...I don't disagree with anything in your last post.
Rex...Measured and reasonable as usual.
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