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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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"for high school, there is NO inadvertent poke, this if the referee sees it..he MUST penalize for it"
Fred,
I can't speak for what you have been told in the Central but we have never been informed of anything like that. This came up in discussion, with the interpreters, at our local meetings and we were told that the call(s) to be made had not changed.
I think the reason was that some officials were taking what you wrote to mean almost any hand to head contact. A head tap and a change of levels would mean a penalty. Certainly not intentional. I am not aware of anyone that enforces it as tightly as you write.
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Greg Debbe added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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Jim
I believe the rule that Fred is talking about went into effect 2 years ago. If I remember correctly, in the state semis Bo Touris was in overtime and won the match on an (inadvertant) eye poke penalty putting him in the finals. If the same thing would have happened the year prior, I believe the refs would have been able to use some discretion. If you are hearing that the rule hasn't changed, thats probably because the rule didn't change from last year to this year.
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Rex Holman added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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Fred and Jim-
Personally, I thank both of you guys for stepping up and giving your knowledge and interpretation. If nothing else it let's the coach be better informed on the matter. It sounds like it is reliant upon your geography and who is charge of education for that region.
The important thing is that it could very well be the difference in a match.
I believe Vreeland(referee) disqualified Capizzi(Sandusky St Marys) for unsportsmanlike in a state final match years ago, only to reverse the dq and assess a penalty point. Anyone else remember it that way?
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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"I believe the rule that Fred is talking about went into effect 2 years ago." "If you are hearing that the rule hasn't changed, thats probably because the rule didn't change from last year to this year."
Greg,
I knew it was either two or three years ago and that is why I did not attach a date to it. I remember hearing from guys in the SW, back then, that they were enforcing it with virtually any head contact. We asked about it at that time and were told that nothing had really changed from an enforcement position and to continue to call the match as we had. Since then, I have heard nothing from the interpreters that has been updated/changed.
I think it is critical to emphasize what Fred said though in that, the official has to see the poke. He can not rely of the reactions of the wrestler whose eye was "poked". He could be looking for a penalty call.
"I believe Vreeland(referee) disqualified Capizzi(Sandusky St Marys) for unsportsmanlike in a state final match years ago, only to reverse the dq and assess a penalty point. Anyone else remember it that way?"
I wasn't there but, wow, that would be a tough sell. The DQ must have been for "flagrant misconduct" so taking that back would just be ugly.
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Mark Palumbo added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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So let me sum up and look for confirmation. Eye poke happens in College, if the ref blows the whistle and stops the action he must do one of a couple things. If he sees the poke and deems it illegal he hits them with a point. If he does not see the poke or deems it not intentional he must start the injury time clock on the poked wrestler. Is this correct?
In high school if the ref see it he must hit him with a point regurdless of intent and if he does not see it he must start the inury time clock.
Did I get it correct.
Also thank you all for your input!
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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Quote from Greg Debbe's post:
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"Jim
I believe the rule that Fred is talking about went into effect 2 years ago. If I remember correctly, in the state semis Bo Touris was in overtime and won the match on an (inadvertant) eye poke penalty putting him in the finals. "
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The rule was changed at the begining of that season, 2006/2007. But I don't remember the match going that way. The way I remember it, there was an eye poke in the 1:00 minute OT period. The ref awarded the point, giving Touris the win and then the combination of Mitcheff, Burnett (his coach), and BO TOURIS convinced the ref to wave it off and let the bout continue. The ref did, and Touris won in the Ultimate Tie-Break.
I don't like the rule, but my bigger issue with it then and now (as evidenced by the postings above) is that, as the rule is written, there should be no ambiguity. Yet, some officials choose simply to not enforce the rule. It's not like stalling or fleeing the mat where there is an element of judgement involved. It's black and white and some officials just decide not to call it.
The Touris/Mitcheff semi from '07 was an example of an offical just ignoring a rule because he didn't think a defending State Champion should lose and close match that way. The probelm is, while it was a just decision, a ref shouldn't be able to decide which rules he will enforce and which ones he won't.
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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As a teammate of Bo's at the time I can tell you that the last thing he wanted to do was win by a penalty. He sent our coach over to refuse the point. Basically Bo was not going to walk off the mat unless someone won legitimately.
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"As a teammate of Bo's at the time I can tell you that the last thing he wanted to do was win by a penalty. He sent our coach over to refuse the point. Basically Bo was not going to walk off the mat unless someone won legitimately."
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That's the way I remember it as well. It said a lot about him that he didn't want to win that way. I remember being very impressed.
That being said, the official made the right call by rule. As a fan of the sport I thought it was awesome, but I just don't like the idea of an official picking which rules he'll enforce. And it happens too often.
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Last edited by Michael Rodriguez on February 4, 2011; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Leo Zimmer added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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What Bo don't know (sorry I couldn't resist!) is that I tell his story of going winless one season in Jr. High to State Champ as HS senior to any young wrestler that will listen to me!
Now ad this bit about refusing a point in the State Semi Final and we may have a book deal!
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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"Yet, some officials choose simply to not enforce the rule. It's not like stalling or fleeing the mat where there is an element of judgment involved. It's black and white and some officials just decide not to call it."
Well, since this seems to be addressed to me I will respond with a couple of thoughts.
1) At no time did I want anyone to think that officials "choose" which rules to call and which ones not to call. We go to meetings, hear the interpreters given us our orders, and go out to do the best we can. Interpretations may vary, depending on the interpreters, but that is the reality of what we do.
2) The rule in question is 7-1-5t (Infractions) which reads "hand(s) in the eye(s) or raking the eye(s)". Seems pretty clear on the surface. Remember the official has to actually see it, not just the reaction.
For me though, this is muddied by 7-1-6 which says "a wrestler applying a legal hold shall not be penalized when the opponent turns a legal hold into an illegal hold. The match need not be stopped unless the finds it necessary to do so in order to correct the situation". Traditionally this would be something like a legal headlock where a wrestler pushes the opponents arm into a position where the headlock is now illegal. There is no penalty because what was legal has been made illegal through no fault of the wrestler applying it. However, at least to me, the same rule could be applied when one wrestler executes a head tap and his opponent drops his level. One wrestler has turned a legal situation into an illegal one, right?
I differ greatly with what you write because I feel judgment is involved. IOW, what just happened?
BTW, this (in my opinion) would be where we can stop the match (to correct the situation) but possibly not issue a penalty.
"The Touris/Mitcheff semi from '07 was an example of an offical just ignoring a rule because he didn't think a defending State Champion should lose and close match that way. The probelm is, while a it just decision, a ref shouldn't be able to decide which rules he will enforce and which ones he won't."
Again, I wasn't there and certainly would not speak to what the official was thinking. Is anyone sure that is what he thought? I would sincerely doubt that a decision to ignore a rule was part of what he was thinking at that moment.
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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Jim...I'm not really directing things at you. I've got issues many with officials in general...it's a personal problem.
I don't know how your rules interp went, and to be honest I haven't been to one in a while. But I went to the one when the rule was put in back in '06 and they were very clear. Hands to the eyes was a point, period. And yet that year, time and time again refs didn't call it that way, including the DI, 112,-pound semi-final.
I want to be clear, I don't like the rule and I think wrestling is better if it was not there.
As far as what was going through the ref's head when he called off the point, you're right, I don't know. But it was a clear eye-poke (accidental), and it was called as such and awarded the point, ending the bout. Then after talking to both coaches and seeing the reaction of both wrestlers, he waved it off and allowed the match to continue.
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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Michael,
I sure don't take any of this personally, I just try to make sure people understand things in a manner that makes some sense for them.
After the last posting, I contacted our local association interpreter to make sure that I wasn't off base and he confirmed that my understanding was the same as his.
I also asked about the very match you mention and was given some additional info. The official working the match was not the one named, in fact he was from the other side of the state. I was told that the match was in OT so the penalty point would have ended the match. The asst official apparently was the one who felt the "poke" not a purposeful move and convinced the head official of this.
Right or wrong? I hope the right thing was done.
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Bill Splete added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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The way this is going. is exactly why I love this site, and read it two to three times a day. Your information and relevant situations help to understand this, I love that you guys took the time to put your points on the page it really does help, for understanding and perspective. Thanks for the info, and I don't think this is over, we may be on to something. The way you guys respond, could help interpret and understand a lot more situations state wide and not just by region.
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Discussion Topic: Question on David Taylor's match in the Penn State v. Iowa dual
Greg Debbe added to this discussion on February 4, 2011
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Has it really been that long? Two years, four years, after 40, whats the difference? No wonder I don't remember it correctly. Maybe I quit watching after the ref originally awarded the point. I just remember thinking the ref made the correct call based on how I understood the rule but that I didn't agree with the rule. Even though I didn't remember it that way, I never thought anything negative against Bo on it. I didn't really think it was in his control to accept or not accept the point. I just thought the rule was called the way it was supposed to be called.
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