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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Fred Feeney added to this discussion on September 16, 2011
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Tony
You need to put yourself in the role of a referee and then once that occurs...I think you might have a different outlook on things.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on September 16, 2011
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Quote from Fred Feeney's post:
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"Tony
You need to put yourself in the role of a referee and then once that occurs...I think you might have a different outlook on things."
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Why do refs always say that? As if someone who is critical of officials would feel totally different if they just put on the stripes? I've taken the class, I've officiated matches. It doesn't make me feel any differently about officials.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on September 16, 2011
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Quote from Fred Feeney's post:
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"Tony
You need to put yourself in the role of a referee and then once that occurs...I think you might have a different outlook on things."
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Fred I officiated Freestyle/Greco back when passivity was around (you actually worked with me a couple times) for three or four years and it doesn't change my outlook at all. Refs make calls sometimes based on exterior factors whether they are new or experienced. Refs are humans who can favor one person over another for whatever reason. I worked with first year officials as well as plenty of M1’s who made decisions based on the moment in the match and their own personal emotions based on the competitors. You should especially know this from the politics of officials out in Fargo and internationally.
To assume those kinds of biases don’t exist in the college ranks would be foolish. This is why I stand by my opinion that we should not give the refs even more “tools” to control the outcome of a match. When you give the refs power to control the match that is based off an opinon that can't be questioned you are asking for trouble.
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Last edited by Tony Bradberry on September 16, 2011; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on September 16, 2011
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Jim, holding can be called on nearly EVERY play in football. The fact that it is called more late in the game is actually proving Tony's point that the officials are changing the outcome of the game.
As for basketball, personal fouls late in the game are usually committed by the team that is losing because they are attempting to stop the clock. The team winning a basketball game late would sit back and do nothing but pass the ball and use as much clock as possible.
The freestyle rule that would help fix stalling in folkstyle is actually the fact that you can win EACH period and that you can end the match earlier by winning the first two of three. Then there is no need to "protect" your lead in the third period because there won't be one.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Fred Feeney added to this discussion on September 17, 2011
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Mike...had a feeling you would say that.
As someone who is critical of officials, you would feel different if you did it as an avocation. Officiating a few wrestle offs is a little different than working a ton of matches at a high level, be it high school or college. I know and expect you to disagree...but it's the truth.
Tony,
The reason we have rules is to level the playing field. Someone has to do that...are you suggesting you just get rid of the referee's and let 2 wrestlers wrestle without rules or someone to oversee?
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on September 19, 2011
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Quote from Fred Feeney's post:
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"Mike...had a feeling you would say that.
As someone who is critical of officials, you would feel different if you did it as an avocation. Officiating a few wrestle offs is a little different than working a ton of matches at a high level, be it high school or college. I know and expect you to disagree...but it's the truth.
Tony,
The reason we have rules is to level the playing field. Someone has to do that...are you suggesting you just get rid of the referee's and let 2 wrestlers wrestle without rules or someone to oversee?"
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No, just that we limit the ability of officials to make calls based on rules that are very vague and have a wide range of interpretation. If you step out in freestyle you are either in or out and it's a point. If you ask five refs in a situation if it’s stalling you will get either yes or no, but the reasoning will be very different for why between each official. Rules must be enforced, but allowing more and more personal interpretation about the rules is bad. Then you add into the fact that a coach can’t even approach the official to talk about the call and it is just bad news. I don’t like stalling calls and think we need to figure out a way to get rid of them.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Fred Feeney added to this discussion on September 19, 2011
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Tony,
I happen not to agree with every rule that's in the book. However since I am the referee, I am duty bound to call the match as the rules committee wants it called and please remember who makes the rules...the coaches.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on September 19, 2011
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If you watched the world championships, you saw that caution +1 can be called in ridiculous situations and the ref's can still play a VERY LARGE part of who wins/loses a match.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on September 19, 2011
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Quote from Fred Feeney's post:
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"Mike...had a feeling you would say that.
As someone who is critical of officials, you would feel different if you did it as an avocation. Officiating a few wrestle offs is a little different than working a ton of matches at a high level, be it high school or college. I know and expect you to disagree...but it's the truth..."
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Fred...My main issue with the "if you don't like it, put on the stripes" defense is that the only people who can have a valid opinion in your eyes are those who are also officials. This stance leads to a general mighter-than-thou attitude that many officials share. "You just don't understand 'cause you're not one of us." You basically say that no one can have an accurate opinion on officials unless they are one. By that measure, only state finalist could have an opinion on the State Finals. No one could have an informed, valid opinion on a movie unless they've produced, directed and acted in one.
I agree that there's a difference between an official of a sport and a layman. But someone who has taken the official's class, officiated matches, and been involved with the sport for 30-plus years is not exactly a layman. When you dismiss criticism of people like that it shows how detacted from reality officials can be.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Fred Feeney added to this discussion on September 19, 2011
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Mike...I am not dismissing your opinion. I am, and have always tried to get you to agree that those who referee (on a consistent basis) will have a different view on how rules are applied versus those that do not.
As far as your example...no one BUT someone who has won a state title can truly know what they have experienced.
We can guess...or surmise, or conjecture...but we truly won't know what that feels like until we too...are standing on that mat and getting our hands raised as a state champion...agree???
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Chuck Balcher added to this discussion on October 12, 2011
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I think the purpose of the stalling call has less to do about the outcome of the match and more to do about giving the fans a better experience, by seeing more action on the mat.
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