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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 12, 2014

A couple more things. The ride out scenario has been around for awhile, although the criteria has changed a bit.

I watched Dunyasha Yetts (matside as a coach) lose against Gerry Abas, Fresno State, in the '94 NCAA semifinals under similar conditions as the Heflin situation. Neither wrestler scored on their feet and it was determined by the wrestler who was better prepared at referee position. More antifragile.

I mention it because it was 20 years ago, yet essentially the same scenario played out. However, Dunyasha had the more fragile game when it came to riding while looking busy. So, you have this really important position that must be developed otherwise it will lead to losses.

Back to theory of work hard and looking to score wrestling ideology. I think I established that it is Gaussian (curve) in nature which covers 95% of preparation i.e hard work, most positions, generalized work.

The other 5%. Let's say that 5% is mostly detail work and strategy. Let's say to avoid it is to avoid some details and strategy as everyone works hard and looks to score. (in my rear view mirror that sure looks a lot like McIntosh's performance against Heflin) I think you can see where I went with this. Strategy and some details might come into play in championship level matches. If you don't have them, well that just sucks.

Another thing. As a coach I think it is imperative that your wrestler scores offensive points. I think some have misread my arguments as an excuse to do nothing. Wrong. You have to score and then dependent upon the skill of the wrestler you are competing against you have to wrestle according to principles. Wrestling with a lead against a similar athlete is very different than wrestling against a less skilled opponent. They are not the same 'tings'.

So you must learn to wrestle with a lead. To make no distinction is to be in error.

Lastly, I used a strategy against Sharrat in our '93 finals match. I knew if I were to get a lead that I wanted to erase time off the clock. I was leading in the third period, he chose down. The strategy I executed was to let him get my leg and work for a reversal. I burned up over a minute. I would move enough to let the referee see progress but not concede the reversal until an adequate amount of time expired. I saw Corey Jantzen do it against Jaggers in the Las Vegas Open and appreciated it for its' strategic brilliance. Anyway, had I not done so, I would have been on my feet with a Hawkeye bullying forward in Iowa in our fourth meeting that year. My position would have become fragile in short order and that performance would not have accounted for the 5%.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 14, 2014

Driving this one home.

The question is not whether your wrestler is complete but IS YOUR WRESTLER COMPLETE ENOUGH RELATIVE TO THE COMPETITION?

Let’s go back to the preparation model of working hard and always looking/trying to score. I have established that it covers 95% of scenarios, which leaves 5% unaccounted. So, this 95% accountability is typically how things are done. It compliments the line of thinking that if I just work hard and do what my coach tells me to do, then surely some of his magnificence will rub off on me and I too will be ready to win. Pretty much a fairy tale and here’s the conundrum.

That 5% which is unaccounted is what wins against the best. That 5% is detail, tactics and strategy because those qualities are largely ignored by the majority of coaches either from ignorance or hubris.

Time log: March something 1992. I was wrestling Mark Kerr in the NCAA semifinals and we were evenly matched. I went up by a point with about thirty seconds to go and I was unprepared for the situation. I was fundamentally devoid of tactics and strategy of how to wrestle with a lead because they were never approached. My position broke because it was fragile and I lost. Later in that same tournament my innate intelligence took over. I was wrestling Chris Nelson from Nebraska, who had beaten me three times. He took me down in the first and chose down in the second. Well, I rode and turned him. Look over at the corner (an Olympic medalist and a 2x NCAA Champ) and they are telling me to go neutral. F that. I am going top. I rode that guy like a rented mule and won. It turns out he was fragile off bottom to my top skills.

The argument that a coach with certain accolades knows best how to prepare for or wrestle a given situation is categorically untrue.

So, when I see a guy like McIntosh lose because he was unprepared to win (a pertinent negative), it tells me that his coach did not prepare him for that 5%.

The struggle comes easier to some than others.
Yet we expect those for whom it came easy to have the answers for those who are struggling.
or another way, some people are really good test takers, maybe they don't see through the eyes of an good test taker.



Last edited by Rex Holman on March 15, 2014; edited 1 time in total

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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 14, 2014

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"So, when I see a guy like McIntosh lose because he was unprepared to win (a pertinent negative), it tells me that his coach did not prepare him for that 5%."



Or the other guy was just better (technically, tactically, physically, mentally or any combination of those 4) in those positions.

McIntosh has struggled mightily against J'Den Cox and Nick Heflin. Both are much taller -- with much onger reaches -- than he is and both appear to be freakishly strong. Some body types, when combined with great skill/preparation, just give you fits.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Roe Fox added to this discussion on March 14, 2014

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"Driving this one home.

The question is not whether your wrestler is complete but IS YOUR WRESTLER COMPLETE ENOUGH RELATIVE TO THE COMPETITION?

Let’s go back to the preparation model of working hard and always looking/trying to score. I have established that it covers 95% of scenarios, which leaves 5% unaccounted. So, this 95% accountability is typically how things are done. It compliments the line of thinking that if I just work hard and do what my coach tells me to do, then surely some of his magnificence will rub off on me and I too will be ready to win. Pretty much a fairy tale and here’s the conundrum.

That 5% which is unaccounted is what wins against the best. That 5% is detail, tactics and strategy because those qualities are largely ignored by the majority of coaches either from ignorance or hubris.

Time log: March something 1992. I was wrestling Mark Kerr in the NCAA semifinals and we were evenly matched. I went up by a point with about thirty seconds to go and I was unprepared for the situation. I was fundamentally devoid of tactics and strategy of how to wrestle with a lead because they were never approached. My position broke because it was fragile and I lost. Later in that same tournament my innate intelligence took over. I was wrestling Chris Nelson from Nebraska, who had beaten me three times. He took me down in the first and chose down in the second. Well, I rode and turned him. Look over at the corner (an Olympic medalist and a 2x NCAA Champ) and they are telling me to go neutral. F that. I am going top. I rode that guy like a rented mule and won. It turns out he was fragile off bottom to my top skills.

The argument that a coach with certain accolades knows best how to prepare for or wrestle for that matter given situations is categorically untrue if the preparation does not account for details relative to his competition.

So, when I see a guy like McIntosh lose because he was unprepared to win (a pertinent negative), it tells me that his coach did not prepare him for that 5%.

The struggle comes easier to some than others.
Yet we expect those for whom it came easy to have the answers for those who are struggling.
or another way, some people are really good test takers, maybe they don't see through the eyes of an good test taker."



This is interesting to me because last night I watched Rowlands) - Mocco(fresh) NCAA match and both looked ready for the other''s style. They both tried their own offense but we're ready to counter the other. Triple ot ride out win for TR.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 14, 2014

Brady-
“Just better” is a vague statement used when there are too many areas of obvious differences between wrestlers. Not so with Heflin and McIntosh. Pretty even right up until Mac’s meltdown. It was ot. I will go with McIntosh became fragile and that Heflin was better prepared on the decisive factor of riding/escaping, which is not the same thing as ‘just better’.

A good rule of thumb would be if a match is decided by one mistake or contrarily by the lack of a mistake then I would deem it evenly matched.

Roe-

It is almost poetic that you mention TR. I think it was his sophomore year that he beat Mocco. Actually, he lost in a dual in Columbus against Mocco which would have given the Buckeyes the win over the Hawkeyes.

Back to the Iowa Dual. The heavy hands of Mocco were the difference in the match. Tommy was not skilled at clearing the tie, what has now become known as the elbow pass. Something I learned from Les Gutches when I was 29 years old and the difference maker in getting someone of your head. I was really upset after watching the match. I found myself on the mat talking to him afterward. Another wrestler in the conversation was talking about baiting Mocco to shoot. This was way off base and not the answer to beating Mocco and falls into the latter category of not being able to see it through his eyes. I ended up in the room the next day working on the elbow pass and emphasizing the need to get him off his head. You see, I had the same issue with Sharrat. I understood it. It took me 6 years past college to find an answer to it.

Anyway long story short. I don’t know if it made a difference as he never said anything to me about it. But, as I watched the NCAA finals that year, he did a much better job of keeping Mocco off his head.



Last edited by Rex Holman on March 15, 2014; edited 1 time in total

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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 14, 2014

I remember watching Joel Sharrat wrestle in high school. Another MN boy. Some tough hombres in your time came from my homestate. Sharrat, Chad Nelson, Chris Short, Marty Morgan to name a few.

Concerning the earlier discussion, I'm trying to wrap my head around the "better prepared" vs. "just better" and I'll through in "better executed plan". Without being in the room seeing their training, IMHO, it's tough to empirically verify which one it is.

Was Dake better prepared than Taylor or was his physical skill set the determining factor when all else is even? Did Taylor get to amp'd up after the first takedown - not mentally prepped for it when it occurred? Did Dake just better follow his game plan in that finals match?

I love these discussions because I've changed much of how I coach based upon reading what you've written, talking with Matt Dernlan about how they trained at PSU and how they trained the Int'l guys at the Nittany Lion Wrestling Club, reading some of Randy Lewis's writings, talking with J.D. about how they train for world championships.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 14, 2014

Brady-
I need to fill in the blanks better.
The litmus test of positional fragility is a match. What happens. When studs collide someone's position is going to give. It has always been a question of who/when.

Regarding the Dake v Taylor match, it was evenly matched as they both scored takedowns. Dake was caught out of position as was Taylor. Dake had stronger escape and riding skills as he escaped quicker and rode longer. Dake wrestled better with a lead. As far as skill sets go, it is only about the ones that are engaged or the ones that are avoided. What we see are the ones that are engaged but that is only part of the story as Dake did a very good job of slowing the pace down and preventing Taylor offense.

IMO, Taylor could have won that match but it would have taken better skill in wrestling with a lead and the riding and escaping areas. So, yes Dake was better prepared. If you are going to knock off the champ, you better be ready to match or better the positions which will be engaged. If you’re are doing a team practice which doesn’t address wrestling with a lead, riding a guy for time, and rapidity of escaping off bottom, then you did not prepare for scenarios which make the difference.

Situations, positions and tactics can be choreographed and developed to the point of excellence which will beat anyone. So, yes if Taylor had a better plan on top, off bottom, on his feet, he would have been better prepared to beat Kyle Dake. Instead, he likely kept wrestling hard during practice and worked on the things which cover 95% of wrestling. I've seen enough college practices to draw some conclusions although I was not in the room.

As an example, rapidity of escaping would be 15 second goes off bottom in which a progression of escape/reversal skills would be attempted while the top man's job is to ride. I think whole practices could be devoted to the ride out. Never seen that happen, yet the ot ride out plays a form in some championship match every year. I'll take a guess and say that McIntosh did not spend enough quality time in that area.

When someone has a meltdown, it means they were unprepared for that eventuality because their mind got overwhelmed.



Last edited by Rex Holman on March 15, 2014; edited 1 time in total

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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Chris Thomas added to this discussion on March 15, 2014

Mr. Holman you have so much knowledge in the sport of wrestling. We all learn so much from your post I really appreciate your thoughts. You have a true gift that you should share with the world.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 15, 2014

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"These are situations, positions and tactics which can be choreographed and developed to the point of excellence which will beat anyone."



If two people both do this and they wrestle, somebody will still win the match. If you lose, it isn't always because of a lack of preparation.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 15, 2014

Again, when someone loses it is because one of their positions was lesser than their opponents and in evenly matched wrestlers it will be one position of engagement.

The variables of wrestling with a lead, wrestling when tied, riding on top and escaping off bottom determine outcome in evenly contested matches. i.e. ot rideout, winning by a point in the third period.

Statements that I did not say but which are inherent to my argument. If you have a lead in the last period, you should be able to finish with a lead with the right preparation. Why? You should be able to revert to your strongest positions and influence the engagement going forward. If the position defaults to a rideout because of evenness, then you must be stronger in the rideout position.

Wrestling from a deficit is different than wrestling from a lead and is different than wrestling from a tie. Wrestling from a deficit means that your position broke, wrestling from a tie means that comparable positions were even.

Wrestlers win these positions and situations as they are better prepared either by design or through rigor.

Delgado beat Megaludis because his ride was comparatively stronger than the escape of Megaludis.

Relatively speaking, David Taylor does not have a weakness; comparatively speaking, against Kyle Dake, he did.

Had he learned to wrestle effectively from a lead, his feet would have been in better position and Dake would have to get through better hand position, which makes the task way tougher. As it was, Taylor was completely engaged offensive mode which is a weaker position. The strategy of wrestling with a lead while looking busy would have possibly changed the outcome. I guarantee that David Taylor does not have a 'defensive mode'. Everyone loves his offense but that is the weakness in his game, an undeveloped defensive mode. Not readily apparent from the way he wrestles.

So yes, some guys are truly exceptional and it challenges us to associate weakness to their game, but it is comparative weakness.

Thanks Chris, I like figuring out how things work and it has always really bothered me when people in authority give me some bs answer which I know to be bs. I wish someone had been able to supply me with the real answer to things in wrestling while I was still competing. The problem in listening to other people is that they have an experience bias, and only relay from their experience. This only gives you part of the story, half truths if you will. You have to be able to discern the underlying mechanisms at work to really understand something.



Last edited by Rex Holman on March 15, 2014; edited 1 time in total

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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 15, 2014

yes i recall Albany, Tommy's soph year he rode Mocco out in OT. VERY TENSE as in those days u simply had the disk flip OT, one unlucky guy had to ride the other for 30 seconds and with refs calling stalling so quickly the on-top guy was at BIG disadvantage then.

Tommy in this case as in the previous year finals, Tommy on top and in 90% of the cases that guy lost. But Tommy didnt, i credit his mental toughness and poise because he wasnt known as a top-wrestler, he simply hung on for dear life for 30 seconds.

later at a post match celebration he sat down at our table and merely said, "I'm so tired."

Rex,
your analysis is very informative-- tell us since you have strong points of view, tell us whch coaches today at any level-- hs, college any div, olympic styles, club -- name some coaches who you think teach what you believe in?? who is doing the best job in that regard?? ...s/BobP



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 15, 2014

Bob-

Kudos for recognizing and mentioning the ot win from top was a different thing than it is today. Back then, the concept of developing a ride with the express purpose of holding a man down and being aggressive was fairly new. Tommy had guts to do what he did.

As far as coaches go that get it right or partially right. I start by looking for evidence of strategy. I saw it with Delgado’s ride on top. I heard others bemoaning it.

Again, timely and poetic in light of the Channel 9 all time greats with Brian Brakeman in which he mentioned my guy (Chris Andrews of New Albany) as a hanger onner, bemoaning his strategic excellence on top which accounted for his winning. It is personal vindication when I see Delgado doing the same thing 9 years later and winning while people are bemoaning the strategy. It feels good.

So, Perry/Hunter got it right with Delgado in preparing him to win. I see instances of it all the time. Evenly matched studs wrestle and one guy uses strategy and tactics while wrestling with a lead or riding/escaping off bottom.

Want more evidence of oversight in the PSU program. Ed Ruth getting beat by a freshman stud from Cornell. What others saw was Ruth having a bad day. Bullshit. What you had was a freshman attending to the variables of hand position, downblocking and moving his feet as they should which trumps shots that don’t clear a path to the legs.

I assert that Taylor and Ruth were so far ahead of the curve and have improved marginally in key details of the game. Are you wowed by a standing granby? I can hit one at 44 y/o if the guy is not attacking my knees from behind. What I did see was more of the same.

I have not seen much evidence of change from those guys and worse, someone figured out Ruth. If Ruth does’nt overwhelm Dean with his shots, then Dean will likely win based upon the head, hand, feet triad of excellence that he executed earlier.

As far as Logan goes, his bottom position has been fragile this year for whatever reason, I don’t know. What matters is that it is fragile. So, if he gets the takedowns on his feet, everything is hunky dory, but if Retherford came out with a strategy to shut down Logan’s attack on his feet and did not get dinged for stalling, then I am taking my money off the table. However, strategy takes time to develop and implement successfully.



Last edited by Rex Holman on March 15, 2014; edited 4 times in total

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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 15, 2014

You are likely to improve marginally in a room full of studs. i.e. Altons

You are very likely to improve greatly in a room full of studs when you add details, strategies and tactics.



Last edited by Rex Holman on March 15, 2014; edited 1 time in total

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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 15, 2014

Rex,
Retherford has hard draws, but imo if he gets to finals vs Stieber i think Penn st will have a good strategy-- for sure they feel if they can go to period 2 with NO score, then the match favors them.

re Mark Perry/Jeremy Hunter strategy, perfect for Delgado's skills. Not a coincidence that Mark Perry a Blair graduate, learned under who i consider a master, coach Jeff BUXTON.

have u observed much of Blair Acadmey wrestling? ive watched them since they emerged as a national power in 1995. ive asked many a coach HOW DOES Blair practice? what does Blair do to develop that on-top success? ive never seen any high school as good on top, though the Easton Red Rovers under Steve Powell are quite good too with less talent.

Sure Blair gets talent but what they do on-top is so impressive. They are like VELCRO on top, their style is to control your hips and return u to the mat repeatedly. If they are ahead or tied u aint geting out.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Casey Talbott added to this discussion on March 15, 2014

Rex:
I enjoy your posts as well, because they make me think of things from a different perspective, although sometimes I have to read them two or three times to get there :)
I do have one quick question.
You infer a fair amount of dissatisfaction with the folks who had coached you, questioning - at least at this point in your life - whether they'd adequately prepared you to win.
Recognizing that you did in fact win, at both the high school and college levels, do you credit these same folks for contributing toward your success?
And assuming so, who stands out, and in what regard?



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