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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 15, 2014

Bob-

I have not watched enough high school wrestling to have an opinion but based on what you are telling me it sounds like he understands the importance of top and spends a lot of time developing skills with lots of reinforcement and guidance. I bet if I were to watch, I could point out some things that aren't so readily apparent. When you see something that is different, that is your first clue that the preparation was different.

Casey-
Pretty much. It’s a complex system which is confusing. At UA in the 80s, we had multiple guys who were ‘evenly matched’ but did not win titles due to oversight. It is a common occurrence. Does it bother me? Yes. If you are a very good coach or competitor, you are up at night figuring how things work and consequently a way to win. You don’t just write it off as the guy was better or pat yourself on the back for a good finish.

I spent numerous years pursuing the Olympic dream. I was just spinning my wheels most of the time. That hurts. You say I was successful in college. Yes, sort of. If I were the coach of me during those years, I know what I needed to be successful and what I was lacking. If that were the case, I could have been a 4x champ. Instead, make Melvin Douglas the assistant coach in charge of me. That’s just dumb.

I have stated on numerous occasion that Randleman was a great training partner for me and helped me strengthen my game. I don't feel like going into specifics about the whole of coaching and how it works but the process of adding skills and eliminating mistakes is what allowed me to finish undefeated my senior year.

To others' defense, I recently had the epiphany of how things work after reading the book Antifragile. I am ready to back up everything I say because I understand the complexity of the system and how it really works.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 15, 2014

I understand perfectly what you are saying Rex about preparation and the lack there of -- I just don't attribute every kids success/failures to that alone. A kid recently was ranked very high on the national scene in college. Was primed to become an AA (never was a state champ) and coaches felt he was prepped to win nationals. Girlfriend breaks up with him 2 days before nationals and he goes 0-2 and leaves school to follow her to a different university. If I didn't know the family, I never know the back story and one could draw the conclusion he wasn't prepared to handle the national tournament. These stories are common place in the high school world.

For as much wrestling as we've all been around, we know some guys that don't pay attention to detail but because they've been SO blessed physically, they bet better prepared guys who just can't keep up physically.

Concerning the Delgado/Megaludis match. No question about it that Delgado was superbly well prepared to get into his best positions in that match AND he executed that plan. MY personal problem with that match was how it was reffed, not wrestled.

Rex, you seem to really be banging on the PSU coaching staff. 3 straight national team titles tells me they are doing much more right than wrong. Imagine how dominate they'd be if they, IF I'm reading you correctly that you are implying, would prepare their wrestlers better for certain matchups. Scary.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 15, 2014

I love reading what you write Rex, just as I love listening to interviews by John Smith, J.Robinson, Tom Brands, Dan Gable, Rob Koll, Tom Borelli, Brian Smith, and talking coaching with Matt Dernlan. I've always believe that if you're not actively trying to improve your craft -- in any and all areas, you aren't doing your job as a coach. I coach much differently now than I did 5 years ago and I did things differently then than I did 10 years before that. I hope the changes have been for the better. I know after some years, I've realized my changes didn't improve the results and in some made them worse. It kills me that I cost some kids matches but like all other areas in life, you learn from your mistakes and try like made not to do them again.

The most difficult thing in the world to do, as a high school coach, is try to figure out what each individual needs -- technique, mentoring, mentally, etc. Not an easy job -- especially when it's not our ONLY job. We are responsible for making decisions on a daily basis that have a profound impact on a kids athletic career and their lives in general. I've never known a coach that said, I'm doing this because it's the dumbest thing I can do. It is always easier to be Dan Gable/Vince Lombardi/Coach K when you aren't the one responsible for 20+ athletes; far far far more difficult to be them when you are.

The struggles that many of my fellow area wrestling coaches are great -- and makes me even more appreciative of the situation I've had at Mechancisburg these past dozen years.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 16, 2014

Brady-

I appreciate the discussion as it makes me improve upon my understanding. Thinking about wrestling is my favorite pastime. Thank you for engaging me in discussion.

My discussion has been about evenly matched wrestlers and wrestlers that have weaknesses in their game that don’t get sufficiently addressed. I am sticking (it) to PSU because they are easy to identify and their lineup is a case study of the things I talk about.

Regarding the wrestler that was whipped on his girlfriend, that is easy. Commitment to GF>Commitment to wrestling. His commitment to wrestling was fragile in the context of his girlfriend. Can you do anything about it? Not really. You can know that his commitment to wrestling is fragile. This guy who was gifted has an Achilles heel. Not much you can do about that as a coach. The more you tell him that the relationship is selfish on her part, the more he will be infatuated with her *beauty*’. Kind of like the Siren’s song. You can’t look away, it drives you insane, and you have to have it.
*I use beauty facetiously as it is really about wanting something obsessively which is not wrestling.

Megaludis v Delgado, you say that you don’t like the way it was reffed. That is because the ref and Megaludis got gamed. It does not resonate with people when they see it. It turns them off and they dismiss it as bunk. Delgado did everything within the rules as they are interpreted to win. The ref did not call stalling because Delgado did not meet the criteria for stalling. When I see it, it makes me smile as I see a coach that attends to details and a wrestler that executes a strategy. It reminds me of a story in one of Malcolm Gladwell’s books about a recording artist, who by all accounts had a unique and smart music product. The problem was that it did not sell. By all accounts, his music is smart, edgy and appreciated by music makers. But, to the people buying the records it does not fit their idea of what music should be. I draw the parallel that the products are smart but people have learned acceptance of a certain way and when it does not meet the certain way, it is rejected.

There are different types of gaming the system. This one is about using strategies, which IMO is respectable. Other types, not so much.

Regarding PSU doing much more right than wrong. Sort of. They recruit better than everyone else but they train the same as everyone else. I contend that David Taylor and Ed Ruth would accomplish the same things if they went to any of the top schools. Some people call them winners. They can also be called curve busters or outliers.

I look at the fails as hard as I do the successes if not moreso. The key to good recruiting is to get guys that are way out ahead of the curve. Some of these guys will improve to a level that wins championships because their fragilities are minimized through rigor. What that means. Wrestlers will learn instinctively what to avoid and what to do that equates to winning.

The others, i.e. Altons, & the hundreds of others who leave HS ahead of the curve. Being ahead of the curve is time dependent and others can catch up ESPECIALLY IF THEIR FRAGILITIES ARE NOT ADDRESSED AND SKILLS ARE NOT ADDED TO.

So, what I see when the Altons wrestle are two guys that have holes in their games due to fragilities and a lack of skill sets. They have been in school 4 years? 4 years is ample time to address fragilities and add some skills. Those guys had a nice underlying skill set out of HS. It looks the same.

After it shakes out and their time is done. I will hear remarks to the effect that they were not tough enough, broke goods, or did not care. In truth, the underlying issues which made their games fragile were never dealt with. Maybe their weaknesses were significant. But did the coaches left in their charge have a clue on how to help them make their weaknesses into strengths?

Also, coaching HS and college are two very different things. The two don’t equate unless you talk about SPG or St EDs. Those programs that win are wrestling academies that get their youth programs going early and get kids ahead of the curve. When they get to HS they hit the ground running and contribute. They are excellence which means excelling past others who are behind the curve. I am not busting on excellence rather giving the reality of it.

As far as your HS wrestlers that aspire to wrestle in college. Get them out as far ahead of the curve as possible. Understand their fragilities and work to make them into strengths because as you know at the next level your only as strong as lowest fragility.IT WILL DETERMINE OUTCOME ESPECIALLY IN THOSE EVENLY CONTESTED MATCHES.

And yes I am writing stuff that is not out there and I learned it the hard way.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 16, 2014

I to greatly enjoy discussing wrestling as it is a passion of mine.

Many blue chip recruits that don't succeed in college -- or don't achieve the success many people thought they should/could can also be attributed to non-related wrestling issues. I mentioned the guy whipped by his GF as an example. I only knew about it because I heard about it from his coach. If I hadn't, it may lead me to draw different conclusions. Talking to other college coaches, they describe guys who had great success in high school but when they enter college room and aren't the B.M.O.C. anymore, their fragile egos can't handle it. They stop putting in the extra time needed to work on their weaknesses and just muddle through their college career.

I'm seeing your point better as it comes to evenly matched opponents and their preparation -- I just think their are a few more variables in the equation. The will to win is greater in some guys. The God given athletic ability is greater in some guys. Those things do affect outcomes in even matched/prepared guys as well -- as does the attention to detail.

I don't contest your point about PSU recruiting better than others recently. I do about their training styles. Matt Dernlan shared some things about how differently Sanderson ran his program than what he'd seen previously. A former world team member once told me how much "fun it was wrestling with Cael on the world team" and that he better understood now how the PSU guys can wrestle with such passion and seem to have so much fun. He told me they "do it right there". Obviously, there are always areas we ALL can improve on and should be striving to do. I changed how I run practices the past two years and I see a different passion and excitement for the sport in my guys. It could be a coincidence as it has overlapped with having some very talented guys in the room and I could be simply fooling myself but I hope I'm not. Time will tell.

Thanks for the discussion and the food for thought.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 17, 2014

Brady-

Regarding their training, was this while at ISU or at PSU? I am assuming PSU because you mention Matt Dernlan.

If at ISU and the world team member had no prior relationship with Sanderson, then you have a strong argument that his training is different.

If at PSU, not as much. In this case, winning brings about the thinking that it is different. People put the cart before the horse and confuse this as things are different and causes winning. Not so.

'Different' is the result of winning, not the other way around.

Same thing takes place in businesses with market cycles. Some CEO is given credit for the rich growth of their companies when in fact it is the result of market factors which is driving growth. The CEO might have had some say in the process but their role in the scope of growth is limited. Kind of like I mentioned. Cael is responsible for recruiting those studs. But growth is a different story.

The argument gets confused as this CEO's decision making is causing market growth (partial truth)whereas in reality it is market growth is causing this CEO to make decisions and he better be listening to what the market is saying. Kind of like when Cael left ISU for the greener fields of PSU. .

I know that is confusing and why people misattribute reasons for winning let alone the secondary repercussions, but it is how a complex system works.



Last edited by Rex Holman on March 17, 2014; edited 2 times in total

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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on March 17, 2014

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"misattribute "



I had to read that 3 times to assure myself you weren't writing dirty words on the .NET ;-)



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 17, 2014

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"Brady-

Regarding their training, was this while at ISU or at PSU? I am assuming PSU because you mention Matt Dernlan.

If at ISU and the world team member had no prior relationship with Sanderson, then you have a strong argument that his training is different."



It was while at PSU. The world team member said how Sanderson made wrestling fun was something he hadn't experienced in prior rooms. I didn't ask how it was made fun -- time was short.

Bill Belicheck had little to no success in Cleveland but is now regarded as one of the better NFL coaches of all time. What's different? He is winning now which obviously makes people look at you different, but I think you are also discounting or maybe not giving the possibility of a person recognizing their own mistakes and changing as well.

I know I've changed how I coach now compared to past years, and I hope it's been for the better - I won't be the judge of that.

I know that I've changed my actions as a husband and a father as I've seen my glaring mistakes as a young man/husband/father and now that I've been those for 41/18/14 years, I've grown into, again hopefully, a better version of me through God's grace in all three of my roles in my home.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 17, 2014

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"Kind of like when Cael left ISU for the greener fields of PSU."



No doubt the fields of PSU were greener than ISU -- and less crowded than the corn fields of Iowa. Growing up in MN, I couldn't stand the Hawkeyes. So glad that PSU (along with the Cowboys and the Gophers) have knocked them down over the years. Now if they could only always finish just short of winning I'd be a happy happy happy man.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 17, 2014

Also, It was different to Matt than what he experienced with Sunderland due to the talent and excitement that Cael brought with him. Excitement is an epiphenomena.

Pro football is a complex system. I have not given it much thought. But if variables are similar, then, New England provided the support($) for Belichik to build a culture and Belichik is a master recruiter of talent and designer of details.

There is a billboard in Central Ohio with the Browns new coach that says Cleveland is going to be the toughest team in pro sport. It makes me laugh and almost ensures more years of misery if that is what the coach is most concerned about.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Ben Golden added to this discussion on March 17, 2014

A couple thoughts that are not related to each other:

1) I don't think Delgado was stalling at all. Maybe in like SV2. He did not disengage from action and he did not avoid wrestling. Sure Megaludis took almost all the shots, but as soon as Megaludis did, Delgado went right to work and wrestled in his positions. Almost all of Megaludis' shots favored Delgado; Delgado came closer to scoring off most of them than did Megaludis. Delgado had no need to create his own shots because Megaludis was bringing all the favorable positions to him over and over again.

2) While it's true that "winning [could be] bringing about the thought that it is different" at PSU, that's also not conclusive. This point does not disprove the fact that things could, actually, be done different there. On what basis do you claim that they don't train differently there?



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 18, 2014

Ben-
Sort of related; We are watching the same things but seeing some of it differently.

I did believe things were different at PSU, especially during the freshman campaigns of Ruth and Taylor. But the freshman wrestlers I saw back then are marginally better today. They were way ahead of the curve as freshman and still look almost the same. Pretty close to the same spot on the curve. Still impressive but a little further developed.

You see, the burden of proof, does not just use success as the determinant variable but time.

The evidence I see is the Altons are still at the same spot and some others are as well. McIntosh’s meltdown was a big piece of evidence to me. Megaludis not being as good in the rideout is evidence to me. To me, it means that they are focused on working hard rather than details of the game which makes a difference in outcome. Focused on the 95%, just like e'erbody else.

We are inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to Team National Champions as to training different because they are team champions. A lot of pitfalls there.

This mentality of believing in a fairy tale is ingrained in us through years of conditioning. The criminal justice system works this way. Innocent until proven guilty. Academia in soft sciences teach us the answers based on theories which only house 95% of reality. The banks were in fine shape until the 2008, right? Wrong.

My point being is that unless we know what we are looking at, our interpretations are going to vary widely.

And no I don’t think PSU is going to blow up. I just don’t think they do anything different other than recruit better.

As far as Cael building an ideology of wrestling being fun, that's good and all, but ask, Dylan Alton if he is having fun. I have not talked to him nor do I know him. But unless he is drinking green beer and has a lady on each arm, I am inclined to say no.

And even if he were to be( drinking green beer and philandering), he'd still be hurting inside trying to figure out why despite his hard work, he was coming up short. Maybe it is the injuries, yea that's it, balance sheet cleaned up, just like that.*Injuries are part of a story but not the whole story and are an easy scapegoat when trying to explain away performance.

Regarding that hard work and seeing improvement that worked in HS and not so much in college, maybe it is because they are not the same things.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 18, 2014

First off, I've really enjoyed reading it. I must say that I don't agree with Mr. Holman on the Penn State stuff. I feel like the successes are being minimized and the failures magnified. There are two Altons on the squad and they get more weight than Megaludis, Retherford, Taylor, Brown, Ruth and Quentin Wright and Frank Molinaro before them. And even considering the Altons, one has clearly not panned out, but the other took third once and has two more chances to AA...hardly a failure. At some point you've got to point the finger at the individual, particularlly when there's so much success going on around him.

Even James English who's taken the spot from Alton should be looked at as a positive. That's a guy who's put in the time, stayed a "program guy" and filled in when a blue-chipper didn't pan out. Now he's at the NCAA Tourney in a wide open weight class All American isn't out of the question for the senior back-up. That's coaching too.

There were two other things that really jumped out at me. First is McIntosh stuff:

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"...McIntosh’s meltdown was a big piece of evidence to me..."



We're talking about a sophomore who got frustrated and took a desperation shot in double OT of the Big Ten finals and got beat by a senior who's on a hot streak, doing the best wrestling of his career (as evidenced by his #1 seed at NCAAs). It's not like McIntosh isn't meeting expectations. He's in the hunt for a title with three opportunities left to win. Bottom line, it's not like he's underachieving, and to throw his name in with Andrew Alton I don't think is an accurate assessment of his progress thus far. Particularly when you compare this season to his tru-frosh campaign. Clearly a lot of improvement has been made.

The second one was this about the Penn State staff:

Quote from Rex Holman's post:

"...Regarding PSU doing much more right than wrong. Sort of. They recruit better than everyone else but they train the same as everyone else..."



Even if I agreed with this, and I don't have enough information to really have an opinion (other than the interviews on Flo where Penn State wrestlers all talk about how much fun their room is), So what? If they do everything the same as everyone else and out-recruit everyone, they're going to beat everyone, right? In your comments the recruiting aspect gets diminished for some reason…as if it's not a HUGE part of a successful program. When they were going out, there was real debate about David Taylor and Eric Grajales and who would have the better career. Ohio State would have loved to get either of them or both. Maybe Coach Sanderson getting one and not the other is him being a better recruiter, and that leads to four years of titles lead by Mr. Taylor while Michigan State is one of the worst teams in the Big Ten. I don't care how good you develop talent, if you don't have the horses; you're not EVER going to win the National Title. Obviously the reverse is not true, so isn't Coach Sanderson doing exactly what he should?



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 18, 2014

Love it ALL AS WELL, as evidenced my comtinually coming here to post.

Michael: Grajales to Michigan. (I know you knew that, but just typed it wrong. Again, I know that you know that. Just wanted to point it out.) it should also be noted that I called Michigan to be doing well by next season. I have no idea of their recruits, but I do know that their staff and RTC has assembled some real talent. And having Cliff Keen as a backer has to help somehow. We'll see if they can improve within the next 365. (I hope I'm wrong! Especially with what the Buckeyes have coming in.)

Patrick: that was hilarious.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 18, 2014

Good call Mark. I totally knew that. I hope my error doesn't spoil the intent of my post. Basically that they're doing a great job at Penn State. Is it perfect? No. But it seems a lot closer to perfect than anyone else.



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