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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

This.

Winning in wrestling (or any endeavor) is about gaming the system.

One can game the system through rigor (unwittingly), or design(wit). i.e. An example of rigor is a Viking that is battle tested and learns through his culture how to fight. Eliminating fragilities and improving strengths. An example of design would be the Trojan horse which was a tactic to breech the stronghold.

Rigor + Design> Rigor

Design accounts for the 5% performance which often gets oversight.

Cael gamed the system by leaving ISU and going to PSU. At PSU, there has been the best amassing of talent at any program in the last decade.

The appearance of different is due largely to the amount of talent in the room.

Design is very cool when you recognize it. Design is developed through preparation. Design is what makes the difference in evenly contested matches. Design is the game breaker.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

I get all that, but I still don't see how the criticism of Coach Sanderson is valid. I get that everyone makes mistakes and can improve, but all he's done is win National Championships. Yes, he has Alton and Andrew Long before him, but find a program that hasn't has a couple missteps in the same period. Look at Ohio State...Jameson, Palmer, Gardner, Garcia, Tessari and Campolattano. Just the last two names puts their falure rate comparable with the Nittany Lions.

I agree that coaching and "Design" can be the difference in close matches, but sometimes the other guy is just better, or better on that day, in that moment. Lance Palmer couldn't get past Schlatter or Metcalf. Was that an error in Design? Humphrey couldn't get past Gomez or Dake. An error in Design? J.D. Bergman got scored on by Dustin Fox in OT. Bad Design?

I point out these Buckeye "falures" not to be inflamitory, but to illustrate how every program has wrestlers who lose close matches in critical situations. Coach Ryan is universally respected and almost all Buckeye fans seem to agree he's doing a great job (that is my opinion as well). But he's been at Ohio State as long as Coach Sanderson has been at Penn State. He has the the same fertile recruiting ground and a great staff to back him up. But he has yet to have anything close to the success that Coach Sanderson and Penn State has had over the same time period.

Bottom line, Coach Sanderson and his staff are doing something right. And to chalk it all up to recruiting is, IMO, minimizing the accomplishment. You say David Taylor was going to be great wherever he went...what does it say that he wanted to go all the way out to Iowa State because he thought Coach Sanderson would give him the best opportunity to excell? What does it say that he then followed him to Penn State? Why does all this top flight talent flock to Penn State? Maybe they see something in Coach Saderson's "design" that you don't?



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
James Kessen added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:

"I get all that, but I still don't see how the criticism of Coach Sanderson is valid. I get that everyone makes mistakes and can improve, but all he's done is win National Championships. Yes, he has Alton and Andrew Long before him, but find a program that hasn't has a couple missteps in the same period. Look at Ohio State...Jameson, Palmer, Garner, Garcia, Tessari and Campolattano. Just the last two names puts their falure rate comparable with the Nittany Lions.

I agree that coaching and "Design" can be the difference in close matches, but sometimes the other guy is just better, or better on that day, in that moment. Lance Palmer couldn't get past Schlatter or Metcalf. Was that an error in Design? Humphrey couldn't get past Gomez or Dake. An error in Design? J.D. Bergman got scored on by Dustin Fox in OT. Bad Design?

I point out these Buckeye "falures" not to be inflamitory, but to illustrate how every program has wrestlers who lose close matches in critical situations. Coach Ryan is universally respected and almost all Buckeye fans seem to agree he's doing a great job (that is my opinion as well). But he's been at Ohio State as long as Coach Sanderson has been at Penn State. He has the the same fertile recruiting ground and a great staff to back him up. But he has yet to have anything close to the success that Coach Sanderson and Penn State has had over the same time period.

Bottom line, Coach Sanderson and his staff are doing something right. And to chalk it all up to recruiting is, IMO, minimizing the accomplishment. You say David Taylor was going to be great wherever he went...what does it say that he wanted to go all the way out to Iowa State because he thought Coach Sanderson would give him the best opportunity to excell? What does it say that he then followed him to Penn State? Why does all this top flight talent flock to Penn State? Maybe they see something in Coach Saderson's "design" that you don't?"



Michael the difference between the OSU guys you mentioned and the PSU guys mentioned is Palmer, Jameson,Garcia left the team due to injury and Cam and Camp were dismissed from the team and Long was kicked out of ISU and Cael took him and Alton and Cam seem about the same but we booted our kid and they kept theirs.

Other then that I agree Cael just wins but sometimes I think who wouldn't win with out of this world talents like Ruth Taylor. To me those guys were going to be great regardless of where they went but I could be wrong. Next year is when I think we find out how good of coach he really is because he is not going to have 2 guys getting bonus points in every match. They didn't starting winning titles till Ruth, Taylor and Wright started. (At least I think that is true)



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

Quote from James Kessen's post:

"Michael the difference between the OSU guys you mentioned and the PSU guys mentioned is Palmer, Jameson,Garcia left the team due to injury and Cam and Camp were dismissed from the team and Long was kicked out of ISU and Cael took him and Alton and Cam seem about the same but we booted our kid and they kept theirs.

Other then that I agree Cael just wins but sometimes I think who wouldn't win with out of this world talents like Ruth Taylor. To me those guys were going to be great regardless of where they went but I could be wrong. Next year is when I think we find out how good of coach he really is because he is not going to have 2 guys getting bonus points in every match. They didn't starting winning titles till Ruth, Taylor and Wright started. (At least I think that is true)"



I think this is crap. "Next year is when I think we'll find out how good a coach he really is"...Really? Four straight NCAA titles isn't enough? When do we "find out" about Coach Ryan or Coach Brands or Coach Koll? Do we know about Coach Robinson yet? How about Coach Smith?

If Coach Ryan doesn't win four staight titles with Snyder, Tomessello, Jordan and Jordan...particually with a year with both stiebers in the line-up, will it mean he's doing something wrong? And if he wins four straight, will it be just because he out-recruited the rest of the country? I bet it won't.

Penn State never won before Coach Sanderson showed up. They've done nothing but win since then. If Bo Nickal and Nick Nevills end up being the next big thing then won't it just be that Coach Sanderson out-recruited everyone again? If he never wins another title then he'll still have more titles than Ohio State, Michigan and Cornell combinded.

You guys just seem to not look at Penn State objectively. I honestly feel that if Ohio State had gotten those recruits and had that success every Buckeye fan would think Coach Ryan was the second coming of Dan Gable.

I don't understand fans.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
James Kessen added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:

"

Quote from James Kessen's post:

"Michael the difference between the OSU guys you mentioned and the PSU guys mentioned is Palmer, Jameson,Garcia left the team due to injury and Cam and Camp were dismissed from the team and Long was kicked out of ISU and Cael took him and Alton and Cam seem about the same but we booted our kid and they kept theirs.

Other then that I agree Cael just wins but sometimes I think who wouldn't win with out of this world talents like Ruth Taylor. To me those guys were going to be great regardless of where they went but I could be wrong. Next year is when I think we find out how good of coach he really is because he is not going to have 2 guys getting bonus points in every match. They didn't starting winning titles till Ruth, Taylor and Wright started. (At least I think that is true)"



I think this is crap. "Next year is when I think we'll find out how good a coach he really is"...Really? Four straight NCAA titles isn't enough? When do we "find out" about Coach Ryan or Coach Brands or Coach Koll? Do we know about Coach Robinson yet? How about Coach Smith?

If Coach Ryan doesn't win four staight titles with Snyder, Tomessello, Jordan and Jordan...particually with a year with both stiebers in the line-up, will it mean he's doing something wrong? And if he wins four straight, will it be just because he out-recruited the rest of the country? I bet it won't.

Penn State never won before Coach Sanderson showed up. They've done nothing but win since then. If Bo Nickal and Nick Nevills end up being the next big thing then won't it just be that Coach Sanderson out-recruited everyone again? If he never wins another title then he'll still have more titles than Ohio State, Michigan and Cornell combinded.

You guys just seem to not look at Penn State objectively. I honestly feel that if Ohio State had gotten those recruits and had that success every Buckeye fan would think Coach Ryan was the second coming of Dan Gable.

I don't understand fans."



They didn’t win anything before Taylor Ruth and Wright either. I agree Cael is a great coach but I also think it’s easier to be a great coach when you have 3 studs scoring bonus points in almost every match.

Replace Ruth and Taylor with other champs wining by dec. every match and PSU wouldn’t have won the title last year and they wouldn’t have won B10 this year. So my point is he won’t have the luxury of having Taylor and Ruth make up for an Alton underperforming. I wasn’t trying to make light of what Cael has done because he is great but I do think it will be different next year.

If the recruits you mentioned turn into Ruth and Taylor then a lot will be because of Cael and his staff and if they turn into the Altons then it will also be on them.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

Of course he's gonna have a lesser year then he's had. He's losing his two best wrestlers. What do you want to bet he finishes better than fourth in the Big Ten and is in serious contention with the rest of the country? With Megaludis, Gulibon/Conway, Retherford, Alton, Alton, Brown, Nickal, McIntosh and Nevills he won't have a year like Ohio State is this year. Ohio State took sixth last year and lost next to nothing and yet have struggled all year (although the did have a nice Big Ten tourney). Where's the same level of judgement and criticism? And I have no issue with Coach Ryan. I just don't see how anyone, particularly fans of a team that has never won anything, would be so hard on Coach Sanderson.

Again, I think Ohio State would be thrilled to have the record Coach Sanderson has.

And I think it's arguable that Snyder and Bo Jordan are better recruits than Ruth and Taylor were. So if Coach Ryan doesn't get them to wrack up bonus and lead the team to four staright titles then is he doing something wrong? I don't think so. I think Coach Ryan is excellent. I also don't think he's as good as Coach Sanderson.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
James Kessen added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:

"Of course he's gonna have a lesser year then he's had. He's losing his two best wrestlers. What do you want to bet he finishes better than fourth in the Big Ten and is in serious contention with the rest of the country? With Megaludis, Gulibon/Conway, Retherford, Alton, Alton, Brown, Nickal, McIntosh and Nevills he won't have a year like Ohio State is this year. Ohio State took sixth last year and lost next to nothing and yet have struggled all year (although the did have a nice Big Ten tourney). Where's the same level of judgement and criticism? And I have no issue with Coach Ryan. I just don't see how anyone, particularly fans of a team that has never won anything, would be so hard on Coach Sanderson.

Again, I think Ohio State would be thrilled to have the record Coach Sanderson has.

And I think it's arguable that Snyder and Bo Jordan are better recruits than Ruth and Taylor were. So if Coach Ryan doesn't get them to wrack up bonus and lead the team to four staright titles then is he doing something wrong? I don't think so. I think Coach Ryan is excellent. I also don't think he's as good as Coach Sanderson."



Mike why do you keep bringing up OSU becuase I havent mentioned them once. Just beacuse I have a differnet take on Cael then you please stop acting like I'm an OSU homer and think they can do no wrong. I have stated numerous times I think Cael is a great coach I have also said he didnt win anything before Ruth and Taylor and I can't wait to see how he has the team looking next year without them on and off the mat.

Bo is simialr to Taylor and pins alot but I don't think Ruth and Snyder are that similar. Ruth pins more then Snyder and I don't see Snyder TF as many people as he does in HS.

If Ryan doesnt win a natioanl title in the next 4 years then yes I will be pissed.

Mike I'm not saying Cael isn't going to be a great next year without Taylor and Ruth but I think it will be interesting to see if they can keep it going without them.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

I bring up Ohio State because I think most on the forum are well versed in the team and I think that most on the forum think Coach Ryan is doing an excellent job. That assertion suffers by comarison when it's put in the context of the Penn State conversation.

I agree that you've never said Coach Sanderson isn't a good coach and you've been pretty measured in your statements. I was still in the mode of talking to Mr. Holman. Sorry about that.

And I would argue that Snyder is every bit the recruit that Ruth or Taylor was. In fact he's probably better. Undefeated throughout high school, Dapper Dan winning, Fargo Double Champ, Junior World Champ, skipped his senior year to train at the OTC.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Pat Altvater added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

[quote="Michael Rodriguez"] Ohio State took sixth last year and lost next to nothing and yet have struggled all year (although the did have a nice Big Ten tourney).

Michael: Where did you draw this conclusion from? And I, just for the record, am a Buckeye homer.

OSU's lineup was in complete flux this year from last years squad. There was not one position in OSU's lineup that had a return starter complete much over 50% of the matches at a given weight from last year. The only two classes with return starters are 149, where Paddock started less than half of the season last year, and 184 where Courts wrestled about half of the previous season. Of the guys that wrestled in 2012-2013:
125: Triggas graduated. Nick Roberts is a first-time starter.
133: Logan 'transitioned' up a weight to a new class. So, JDJ came in and transitioned from previously wrestling 125 two years ago.
141: Hunter was there, but red-shirted this year, making room for Logan
149: Cam started the season, and Paddock finished due to discipline.
155: Demas and Garcia are gone this year due to injury. Randy has filled-in,but Big Ten was too much for him. (We might have Josh back next year.)
165: Martin moved up this year to fill a hole. Joe G. filled in the best he could.
174: Nick was there last year, but 'transitioned' up two weight classes to 197 this year, with Martin 'transitioning' up to a very tough 174 class.
184: Cody Magrum was the primary, but Kenny did wrestle some.
197: Campolatano is gone due to legal/discipline issues. Nick 'transitioned' up two classes and has been adjusting all season to the new weight.
285: Pete Capone did not return. Nick T. is a new starter to D1.

There was absolutely no continuity to OSU's roster from last year. Between injuries, red-shirts, leaving school early, and weight class changes, almost every position was in flux from last year.

I think that 4th at Big Tens, and 3rd at the National Duals were great accomplishments for this team. I also think that they have an outside chance at top six in the NCAA tournament this weekend, but a lot would have to go right for them for that to happen. (I was disappointed in their Big Ten dual record, but that happens with injury and depth issues).

Next year should be OSU's year, they will be loaded across the board. - I know that I am a crazy optimistic, 'scarlet glasses wielding', OSU fan, but I believe it is possible for them to have 4 NCAA champions next year. But, obviously a lot things can screw that up!



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

i am enjoying this intense debate very much, some excellent critical thinking here. Good minds at work presenting their case from different perspectives.

debate could be influenced a bit by NCAA tourn, i think Penn st is vulnerable to Iowa, MN, even perhaps Okla st & Cornell. let's see if Penn st can stand up to this challenge, i think they might fail to win it.

btw, there is no doubt Ed Ruth has grown alot at Penn st from his senior year at Blair where he grew alot too.

yes Ruth was considered a top reruit for Penn st--- however facts are as a hs senior he barely beat sophomore Chris Phillips and then after winning Ironman title he lost in first round at the Beast.

Buxton did alot with Ruth his one year at Blair, Cael did alot too. Ruth was still a work in progress headed to both Blair and then Penn st. Ruth had never finished higher than 4th in PA states prior to entering Blair. ...s/BobP



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

Pat...I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I was looking at the fact that they lost three guys to graduation: Triggas, Magrum and Copone. Not really heavy scorers at NCAAs. Yet everyone was prepared for a rebuilding year.

Injuries, red-shirts and character issues all fall on the coach, right? It's part of his "design" or lack thereof. Like I said, Penn State is going to lose their two horses and they won't drop like Ohio State did. Instead of getting praised for planning and having a forward thinking model, he gets "now we'll see how good he REALLY is".

If Coach Ryan and his staff win a National Title or two with this great class, he should get a ton of credit for recruiting them, developing them and providing them with an environment that is conducive to them achieveing their potential. He shouldn't be thought of (even by his rivals) as someone who just lucked out with a nice batch of recruits.

Truth be told, if your name isn't Dan Gable, then you're going to have rely on a special group of recruits coming through, maybe a couple of overachievers, a little luck and somebody else having a bad day to win the NCAA Tourney. It's been that way for decades. Did people look at John Smith this way? At J. Rob? Maybe they did. I honestly don't know.

Mr. Preusse...I agree that Penn State is not a slam dunk to win the title this year. They've lost some big scoring over the years and several teams have stepped up their games (Minnesota and Iowa in particular).

Maybe this is just part of being on top that people like to nit-pick, but when was the last team that won four in a row, or even three? It is what it is. They are what their record says they are...and that's the best team in the nation three-plus years running. And they are the best teams for ALL THE REASONS great teams are great teams: Talented individuals, great coaching with regard to technique, stratigy and mental preparation, an administration that is supportive, and a sense of purpose within the team to achieve the group goal.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

Quote from James Kessen's post:

"Bo is simialr to Taylor and pins alot but I don't think Ruth and Snyder are that similar. Ruth pins more then Snyder and I don't see Snyder TF as many people as he does in HS."



Snyder is a higher regarded recruit than Ruth. His HS accomplishments dwarf what Ruth did in the same corresponding time frame. Sunderland/Dernlan were the coaches that recruited Ruth. When they signed Ruth, I recall Matt telling me they just got the one of, if not the best guy in that class. He was dead on.

I understand the point that Rex is making, I, like Michael, think that the contributions of a coaching staff is being to inflated for losses (ie. McIntosh's loss to Heflin) and to minimized for wins (McIntosh's whipping of Schiller).



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Pat Altvater added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:

"

Injuries, red-shirts and character issues all fall on the coach, right? It's part of his "design" or lack thereof. "



Michael: First of all, all of those coaches that you mentioned deserve to be in the Hall of Fame for their accomplishments. Tom Ryan has not earned his ticket yet, but he's working on it!

Let's look at your central thesis here, 'Injuries, red-shirts and character issues all fall on the coach, right?'

1) Injuries: I do not think that all of the blame of injuries fall on the coach. Like football, wrestling is a contact sport, and collisions and extreme stressors occur that cause injuries that the coach cannot do much to minimize. - When I wrestled, a senior put me in a guillotine at practice, and stretched a muscle in my chest that had me out for three weeks. Was that the coaches fault, NO. Injuries happen. Now in the case of Garcia, I believe his injury dated back to high school, but everyone expected that surgery and rehab would heal the problem. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. In the other injury cases, I don't think there was anything that Coach Ryan or his staff could have done to prevent them.
2) Red-shirts: Sure, this is by design of the coach. It has certainly worked well for Cael Sanderson, I hope it works as well for Tom Ryan, time will tell. Personally, I think he has made the right choice for OSU with the wealth of talent ready for next season. And the gold standard in wrestling is who gets the individual and team championships. - We can resume this discussion a year from now.
3) Character: Interesting question. How much control does a coach have over this issue. They are always walking a tight-rope on this one. - Did anyone at OSU foresee the problems with Cam and Campo? I don't know. It was never a topic of discussion in their freshman seasons when Cam was an All-American and Campo was Round of 12. The only thing we saw was their great potential and future. - (I am glad that the drinking age was 18 when I was that age, or I probably would have gotten in a lot more trouble at that age than I did.) - How much of this is the coaches fault? The coach can put programs and policies in place to control these issues as much as they can, but in the end it comes down to the free-will of the young men involved to stay focused and behave. - So, I don't blame the OSU coaches for these issues, they are delays and stumbling blocks that have to be weathered and endured to proceed towards their true team goals.

Basically, I don't blame the OSU coaches for most of these things. I believe that they are dealing with them the best that they can. But because of these issues, OSU has not reached its true potential yet. - Hopefully NEXT YEAR.



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

Tom Ryan admitted to me that ohio st made quite a few recruiting mistakes in recent years, that case is closed.

Tom and staff still doing helluva job compared to other staffs in buckeye history. (and i think the best is yet to come, but that will have to yet be proven.)

Cael record speaks for itself, no matter how anyone disects it, it comes out same: GREAT SUCCESS. As Bill Parcells said, "You are what your record says you are". ...s/BobP



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Discussion Topic: Um, yeh, About that.
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 19, 2014

I think PSU is operating on a larger economy of scale in terms of talent due to Pennsylvania being Pennsylvania and Cael being Cael Sanderson than any other program in the country. I think they have the most talented room in the country.

I have said that they recruit and get guys that are out ahead of the talent curve. With a little tweaking some of those guys are in the hunt for a NCAA title right away. They do a great job at this. The recruit is excellent and they improve on him.

I picked PSU because they are winning and I think my argument is interesting and valid despite of their success.

I can highlight some other programs and results.

You mentioned J.D. Bergman’s final against Dustin Fox. Was there any strategy? No. I knew that Dustin had a big advantage in the ride out scenario and if it were to come that he would likely win. I still had delusions of helping and making a difference by getting into the room 1x a week at OSU. I actually drilled with J.D. a couple times that season. I attempted to show him an inside drag as I thought it was a way to at least take down Fox. That was back during the JJ Huddle days and I can remember typing something to the effect of a strategy to beat Fox at the beginning of that season which really emphasized that the ride out favored Fox. So, they were evenly matched except the rideout favored Fox. It all came down to a ride out. Was the ride out emphasized as much as it should have been in J.D.’s training, was a takedown recognized as a necessity in order to positively influence outcome?

Tommy Rowlands, 2008, not 2012. I was still training and it would mark my last year of trying to make a difference at that level. Sean Salmon and I were two of Tommy’s training partners. We would rotate in on him while he stayed in. The guy is friggin’ tough. An animal. We went hard and gave him the best we could. But you know what? That training was geared to scoring a takedown when he was tired. Clinchwork? Not so much. What ultimately determined the outcome in the final trials? CLINCHWORK.

Was it about someone just being better? Bullshit. It was about preparation. Some people get it right through rigor and some people get it right by design.

Howe v Sponseller for 3rd place. Sponseller was wrestling him even. Sponseller’s hands came out of position in the third period. Oversight or was Howe just better?

Guys like Storley and Steinhaus look incredible but I can identify little holes in their games which undermine performance. These guys are legitimately even with everyone else in the country but for a few things.

One condition of my argument that is getting lost in translation is that AMONGST EVENLY MATCHED OPPONENTS it is preparation with details that makes a difference.

Had Taylor beaten Dake, there would be evidence that his preparation was spotless.

Molinaro, huge advantage against Ness.

Wright evenly matched against Kilgore. But, one of the best one underhook single leg combinations around (rigor). It turns out that was the deciding variable in a match of evenness.

Going forward to this year’s NCAA. I have been impressed with the detailed and specific strategy of Cornell wrestlers. It just so happens that they will match up with two high quality PSU wrestlers. Let see what transpires.

I will set up a hypothesis like this. In matches of evenly contested opponents, #2 s vs #3s , the matches will be determined by rideouts or attention to details such as hand positioning and foot movement later in the match.

If PSU wrestlers do a better job in the rideout or detail attentiveness later in the match, then there is evidence against my hypothesis.

If Cornell wrestlers do a better job in the rideout or detail attentiveness later in the match, then there is evidence for my hypothesis.

There it is; putting my ideas up against reality.



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