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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on June 19, 2014
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this is a slow period on forum, so here's thoughts to chew on, esp for Coaches.
Partial excerpt from AWN June issue. Six top hs coaches from all parts of the nation pretty much agree & tell us why: Olympic styles help high schoolers improve ---and high schoolers today are better than 20-30 years ago, some say much better.
HIGH SCHOOL INSIDER
QUESTION: The high school kids rankings done by the major publications factor in the Olympic styles results, mainly Fargo. What skills from the Olympic styles help a kid transition to college?
Mike Powell is head coach at powerhouse Oak Park River Forest Illinois: “Hand fighting, dominate ties, position. Greco mat awareness- pushouts. High level, high pressure competition. The need to finish clean and immediately.”
Randall “Biff” Jones assists with brothers head coach Shawn and Rodney on the Broken Arrow Oklahoma staff (Rodney 3x AA, NCAA runnerup 1999 for Oklahoma U): “We respect all three forms of wrestling but folkstyle is our focus. We feel like folkstyle is the more difficult form of amateur wrestling. Mat time may be one of the greatest advantages for Olympic style wresting. It’s never a bad thing to get more mat time. As far as technique is concerned, we feel like there is a separation from Olympic wrestling and collegiate wrestling. In college a great scramble like in the 125 pound finals at NCAAs would have had a different scoring outcome. The scoring methods are very different, many positions are different. Wrestling is wrestling and we feel like any experience is beneficial as long as you don’t create freestyle only techniques.”
Troy Tirapelle coaches Buchanan California in the famed Central Valley. He tells me: “I think there are several skills that are transferrable to the college style, but the most important skill in my mind is the battle for position. Too many young wrestlers and coaches believe wrestling is about how many moves you know and how well you do them. However, when you get to the higher levels of the sport, everyone has certain things that they do well and each competitor is trying to put themselves into a position battle that they believe they will win more times than not (therefore increasing their chances of scoring points/winning). Wrestling at the highest level is comprised of efficiency and probability; how to better ones odds.”
John Gramuglia has built Wadsworth Ohio into a contender in division I, in fact his team beat St. Edward to win the state title in 2010. He tells me: “I think freestyle wrestling is vital to the development of any wrestler who wants to win a state championship or be one of the weight class elites. The repetition of drills and live wrestling with freestyle techniques will teach proper body positioning for any style of wrestling. It also teaches total body control and shot finishing with control. You will learn how to score against the elite wrestlers with freestyle training.”
Dave Crowell of Nazareth Pennsylvania coaches in the famed Lehigh Valley: “I'm not so sure it is a matter of specific skills as it is an improved ability to compete against high level kids and the better reaction time, counter-attacking ability and the increased ability to take advantage of mistakes or faults in positioning.”
Roy Hall has coached some real powerhouse teams at Davison Michigan, with names like NCAA champs Brent Metcalf, Paul Donahoe and Jon Reader. Roy says, “ I think it shows commitment, and passion for competition, which is very important at the next level.”
QUESTION: Are high school wrestlers overall as good or better today than they were 20 or 30 years ago?
Mike Powell: “Way better. I didn't know a high crotch when I got to Indiana and placed in the NCAA’s 18 months later. That would never happen today. It's not even close.”
Randall Jones: “I wouldn’t say that high school wrestlers are better today because that would be disrespectful to all the great wrestler from those respective eras. I will say that wrestlers today may benefit from better opportunities and coaching. The availability of solid technique helps young coaches teach their wrestlers. Tools like the internet and videos really help with technique. School systems are also paying better salaries which pull in more qualified coaches. I will also say that nutrition and the overall fitness is better due to coaches educating their wrestles and promoting a healthy lifestyle.”
Troy Tirapelle: “Better is hard to say because one can really only compare against those that were around the same era. The sport changes through time. I believe that the technique is better now than it was back then do to more specialization of sport and kids’ careers starting earlier. However, I would have to guess that past generations would argue that the sport is not quite as tough as it used to be due to how officiating has changed what wrestlers can and cannot do. I would guess that they are mostly a wash of each other.”
John Gramuglia: “High school wrestlers are much better now because high school coaches are better. Let's face it. The advancement of camps and clinics, the Internet, Flo wrestling and so many other technological advances has made our sport so much better. Wrestling is not just a pocket or cluster of outstanding teams in one region or area. High school wrestling has broken the geographic barrier and is a national phenomenon. Tournaments like Ironman, Cheesehead, and Beast expose the high school wrestler, parent, and coaches to all techniques and higher levels. There are only two thing to do. Either get on board or get beat.”
Dave Crowell: “I think wrestlers are overall much better today than 30 years ago. There were a few exceptions but it is my impression that today's wrestlers' ability to flow and scramble make them several steps ahead of their 1980s' counterparts. Obviously, techniques have advanced. My equivalent would be women's gymnastics and comparing the skills of the 1980’s with those of today. Also, aside from a few "freaks of nature" the strength of today's wrestlers is superior.”
Roy Hall: “Overall they are better coached, technology has increased the knowledge and allowed kids to see what technique is being used. So many more resources, on training, cross-fit etc. However, mental toughness is mental toughness, I don’t think you can count someone as better from different eras.
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Bill Splete added to this discussion on June 19, 2014
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Bob,
If you don't think freestyle helps you are not current even with 20 years ago, if you want to get noticed get to fargo. Are kids better today? absolutely,
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on June 19, 2014
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Bill, yes so true-- AND just trying to make Fargo Team Ohio in either or both styles makes a kid better.
Going to opens, to regionals, to various qualifiers. Just competing & being around other highly motivated kids from various schools..... ive seen Ohio kids in fargo and said to myself wow did he improve this much just since March.
however Troy Tirapelle and Roy Hall make good points, "mental toughness" will always separate the best wrestlers, doesnt change from one era to another.
Greco important too, teaches toughness, i recall the late great Adam Frey's dad saying how much it helped his son, he doubled in fargo, in fact won both styles. i always believed it takes "a man" to double in fargo. Wr Greco a few days, get beat up -then make wt again and wr freestyle. When we see a kid double AA both styles, that kid is gooooood.
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on June 19, 2014
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I'm disappointed in this thread. Entitled "Something to chew on" and not one mention of brisket.
But I'll read it after my boy's game.
I did read Bill's post... FS & GR help a wrestler improve.
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on June 19, 2014
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Nice to see them talk to Coach G. He's absolutely my favorite coach in Ohio. He also happens to be correct with his takes in the article.
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on June 19, 2014
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I appreciated reading POV from across the nation. Great read. Thanks.
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on June 20, 2014
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Wrestlers are much better today from a technique/training perspective but there were a lot more tough kids 20-30-40 years ago.
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Casey Talbott added to this discussion on June 20, 2014
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^^^ Tru dat, but that was before "The Wussification of America".
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on June 20, 2014
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preview next month column-- excerpt-- theres some great coaches out there, important to hi lite their views. Northwestern and Fairview Park Ohio's DREW PARIANO, great young coach, no one sharper, and doing it at a college with only a very small pool of wrestlers who can even be admitted:
Question: The high school kids rankings done by the major publications factor in the Olympic styles results, mainly Fargo. What skills from the Olympic styles help a kid transition to college?
Strong Positions and finishing clean. In Freestyle, you cannot get out of position on your finishes or your technique will be exposed. Hand fighting is also a major component in freestyle and Greco; which is similar to college and when you get into the All-American rounds at Fargo, you see some outstanding hand fighting and positioning.
Question: Are high school wrestlers overall as good or better today than they were 20 or 30 years ago?
They are better now due to club coaching and the opportunity to compete in national events across the country. But if you were to ask me who is tougher, just grind it out tougher.....then I can't objectively answer that because I know that wrestlers were extremely tough 20 to 30 years ago.
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on June 20, 2014
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as of now can read any recent issue of AWN for free http://amateurwrestlingnews.com/
(i recommend Jim Kalin column, formerly Strongsville wrestler, now a bar owner in downtown LA, the guy can write. --click AWN magazine.)
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Brandon Gambucci added to this discussion on June 20, 2014
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I think it's more of stylistic change through time than anything. I imagine that wrestlers from now-a-days transported to 30 years ago would wrestle a more grinding,less technical, "tough" style, wheareas the opposite would also be true.
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on June 20, 2014
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I have a slightly different perspective on the subject of now vs then.
This is based on nothing more than what I see as I (and others) see as we work the matches.
IMO, the kids at the top, today, are VERY good. Perhaps the best ever. These are the kids we see at Fargo, Ironman, Brecksville, or wherever.
However, the base of the triangle is much narrower today than it was 20-30 years ago.
A lot of reasons of course. Pay to play, if I don't start I don't want to be on the team, lack of participants, etc.
Bottom line is that the depth is simply not there. I look at the Mentor District then vs now and the difference is striking.
Again, I stress that the best kids are amazing but the drop off is very fast.
Just my $.02.
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on June 20, 2014
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Remember: Cleveland has lost a good portion of its population of the last 30 years.
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on June 20, 2014
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Jim,
u right, not the depth today, fewer kids want to participate.
Mentor district is a separate matter-- its decline mirrors decline in Greater Cleveland depth at the top, much of it due to loss of manufacturing jobs (wrestling is a blue collar sport) and sheer loss of population.
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Discussion Topic: something to chew on -- --
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on June 21, 2014
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"I have a slightly different perspective on the subject of now vs then.
This is based on nothing more than what I see as I (and others) see as we work the matches.
IMO, the kids at the top, today, are VERY good. Perhaps the best ever. These are the kids we see at Fargo, Ironman, Brecksville, or wherever.
However, the base of the triangle is much narrower today than it was 20-30 years ago.
A lot of reasons of course. Pay to play, if I don't start I don't want to be on the team, lack of participants, etc.
Bottom line is that the depth is simply not there. I look at the Mentor District then vs now and the difference is striking.
gain, I stress that the best kids are amazing but the drop off is very fast.
Just my $.02."
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Nailed it.
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