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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Mike Cook added to this discussion on January 11, 2015

Besides Logan, of course, the most impressive matches were Nate T and Kyle Snyder. Both were at the top of their games and made a statement. I was sitting behind the Penn State bench on the floor. Did anyone see what I saw when the ref raised Hunter's arm after the match?



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
David Rourke added to this discussion on January 11, 2015

Quote from Patrick Campbell's post:

"

Quote from Jeff Reid's post:

"

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Demas has done a nice job this season. My sense of today's bout is that he showed Alton too much respect."

Demas needs to watch some Jordan Burroughs videos. Demas is really fast and if he could learn that blast double, he would be unstoppable. He is better than he thinks he is, to your point Hank."



Can't argue with that."



IMO, I think the problem is that Josh tries to wrestle like Burroughs, but he doesn't have strength/power to blast through people to finish a double like Jordan. He needs to constantly fake shots and move to setup his attacks.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on January 11, 2015

I saw seven minutes of fight.

I'll take it.

I saw Logan get pumped as he recognized the crowd LOVED his pin. He was pumped up. I loved it.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Jim Kessen added to this discussion on January 11, 2015

Quote from Mike Cook's post:

"Besides Logan, of course, the most impressive matches were Nate T and Kyle Snyder. Both were at the top of their games and made a statement. I was sitting behind the Penn State bench on the floor. Did anyone see what I saw when the ref raised Hunter's arm after the match?"



No do tell



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
David Rourke added to this discussion on January 11, 2015

Quote from James Kessen's post:

"

Quote from Mike Cook's post:

"Besides Logan, of course, the most impressive matches were Nate T and Kyle Snyder. Both were at the top of their games and made a statement. I was sitting behind the Penn State bench on the floor. Did anyone see what I saw when the ref raised Hunter's arm after the match?"



No do tell"



It looked like Hunter winced in pain.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Matt Schein added to this discussion on January 12, 2015

I thought overall the buckeyes looked great. NaTo and Snyder were fantastic! DiJulius always wrestles close matches, sometimes that's what happens. Logan does what Logan does. Hunter looked good, but rusty. I'm thinking his injuries are wore than most realize, I have no knowledge of anything, just my thoughts. Demas is so quick and explosive I just wish he could have finished one of his shots, but it was a toss up match, Alton is no slouch. Bo looked good, just think he needs to build his wind back up. Prezzia was in a tough spot, no shame in losing to Brown, was just hoping he wouldn't get pinned. Courts go a win when the bucks needed a win, just needs to finish his shots, it is the B1G, so every kid is tough. Tav almost pulled it off, hope he is OK.

on another note my son and I met Russ Hellickson yesterday, super nice guy.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 12, 2015

I agree with most that the Buckeyes had a pretty good day yesterday. They're right there with the top programs in DI. If everyone on every team wrestles their best, Ohio State can win the National Championship. If they wrestle poorly and other teams step up, they can finish fifth. I have been saying it for years, this is what THE Ohio State University should be every year, period.

On a hot weekend either DiJulius or Demas is a high AA. If they're not on their game they likely don't make the podium. 133 and 157 were toss-up matches that did more to show that Ohio State has All American contenders at those weights then show that they don't. Those guys both deserve their rankings.

The freshman showed why they're the captains of this team. Conway and McIntosh are both excellent. Many feel that McIntosh hasn't lived up to the hype coming out of high school, but he's a returning AA with two more shots at the title. 3X All Americans don't grow on trees, and that's what he'll be when it's all said and done. Snyder is top four right now. No telling what he'll be in March, but I bet it's not lower than that.

Tomasello was border line spectacular. To dominate a wrestler of Conway's skill and experience is a big deal and clearly Tomasello's most notable victory of his short college career. That kid was round of twelve at 133. I know he's taken some lumps, but I don't think there's anyone short of Delgado that Tomasello can't beat. When it's all said and done, I bet he's top four too.

Bo Jordan was workmanlike. I bet this becomes par for the course for a couple of years until he's a junior and senior and starts pinning everyone. He's top three, and if I had to bet, I'd say he's the second best wrestler at 165. I wonder if the fact that Ohio guys like Sulzer and I. Jordan and Harger are highly ranked in his weight class helps or clouds my vision on this topic? I just can't see those guys beating Bo Jordan...and I bet they feel the same way.

Logan Stieber has a legitimate argument as the second best college wrestler of all time...and not just because of his (eventual) four titles. He has achieved a level of skill and efficiency that even the greats have to look at with awe and wonder. Short of Sanderson, I've never seen someone do what he does to EVERYONE he wanst to do it to.

This brings me to Hunter Stieber. I stand by my earlier assertion, this guy's injured. Not hurt, injured. It would shock me absolutely zero if we hear after the season that he requires surgery or will be out for the entire off-season doing rehab. You don't wince when they raise your hand. Something is wrong there...and it's a shame, because he's an incredible talent...so much so, that he may be able to be an All American in a deep and evenly matched weight class ON ONE ARM.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 13, 2015

Quote from Michael Rodriguez's post:

" Logan Stieber has a legitimate argument as the second best college wrestler of all time...and not just because of his (eventual) four titles. He has achieved a level of skill and efficiency that even the greats have to look at with awe and wonder. Short of Sanderson, I've never seen someone do what he does to EVERYONE he wanst to do it to."




the statement "Logan Stieber has a legitimate argument as the second best college wrestler of all time..."?? WOW, 2nd best all-time, thats a huge statement, even if Logan wins 4 it would be a very very highly debatable statement.

I'm not dismissing it however let's see how it plays out and give respect to past greats. I have alot of respect for these greats of the past many of whom have never been seen by most posters. Grand statements always bother me, just my nature.

Better than David Taylor whose senior year was as dominant as Logan this year? Better than
Yojiro Uetake, Dan Hodge, Gray Simon, Kyle Dake, Pat Smith, Tom Brands, Linc McIlravy, Joe Williams, Wade Schalles, Lee Kemp, Stephen Abas, Mark Schultz, Haselrig, Pat Smith, Mark Churella, & Nate Carr among others ?? hmmmmm ...s/BobP



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 13, 2015

Saying he has a legitimate argument and that the subject is "very very highly debatable statement" (not sure what the difference is between that and just "debatable") is about the same thing. I didn't say he was the second best of all time, I said he had a legit argument...and he does. A 4X champ out of the Big Ten, besting previous or eventual NCAA champions for his first two titles and dominating to his second two. I think he is at a higher level than David Taylor right now...dominating just as much against better competition. I can't speak to Uetake (although I've heard great things), but I think he's better than Pat Smith, Haselrig, Tom Brands and McIlravy. I don't think he'll have the kind of success he could internationally if the weight classes stay what they are. He would be perfect for the old 136.5 weight that John Smith dominated in my youth.

It was not meant to be a grand statement....just a recognition of his amazing skills and results.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on January 13, 2015

There are a few names on Bob's list that made me pause.

Logan being in the discussion as the 2nd best college wrestler of all-time suits me well, as I am a Buckeye homer. (And he's just SUCH a great young man.)

But Uetake, Kemp, and Hasslerig certainly jumped out and mede reexamine my homer-ism. There is a part of me that really wants to throw Dake in that mix.

Up to this point, all three 4x-ers have done something that none before them had done. Well, I guess Pat Smith didn't but that because no onehad ever won four, so I guess that's his mark.

Cael was undefeated over four years of competition.

Dake moved up a weight class for each of his. All of that is some heavy shtuff!

Logan will be, as M-Rod points out, the first from the BigTen, which, to me, is something truly amazing. The absolute grind that D-I NCAA wrestling is combined with the fact that you spend January and February going up against the best of the best on a weekly basis proves (to me) that what he is doing is something very remarkable.

Bob mentioned Lincoln McIllravy - he didn't do it. He was close, but still didn't do it.

I do hold a special place in my heart for Hasselrig -the only 6x NCAA champion. That dude had some serious accomplishments. Same for Kemp. Everything I've ever read or heard about his freshman year's finals match it not positive about the outcome.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on January 13, 2015

Assuming things go the way we all think they will go, Logan will be the first 4 x Big Ten Champ plus 4 x National Champ. Even the great McIlravy went 3 x and 3x.

It's possible, although not likely, that Cael himself may have dropped a match or two if he had competed in the Big Ten. Whatever the conjecture, Logan will most likely be the first to go eight for eight.

Couple that with being a fine, young man with as much class as talent, and you have one exceptional individual.

I venture over to the Iowa Rivals forum here and there to see what might be interesting. There was a recent thread on Logan. Iowa fans have high respect for him as a person.

They don't go out of their way to salute Ohio State guys very often.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Roe Fox added to this discussion on January 13, 2015

My opinion is he is the second greatest for the reasons stated above. I think Dake is special but the four different weight class means little to me. If Logan grew steadily over four straight years does one really think he wouldn't win? Same with Cael. Dake was never small for a weight.

And no mention of Gable? One big albatross loss around his neck that was close which he avenged the next week (or month, I forget) in a big way. It is so hard to reconcile his utter domination with that lone loss. But the balance of his matches were beat downs.

Maybe it has been mentioned before but I recently saw on YouTube "the champion 1971." Had almost all of the Owings match.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 13, 2015

Quote from Mark Niemann's post:

"There are a few names on Bob's list that made me pause. -- -- -- Bob mentioned Lincoln McIllravy - he didn't do it. He was close, but still didn't do it. "



Mark,
i know McIlravy though a 4x finalist didnt win 4, he won 3, but everyone i mentioned deserves consideration on the short list of all-time greats. Most of the guys mentioned were on the NCAA 75 Year Anniversry team, and add in a recent guy Dake. Perhaps by end of season Logan Stieber too.

alot goes into the equation, the short list, WHO U BEAT for example. Here's several examples, NATE CARR had to beat future Olympic gold medalist Kenny Monday twice in finals to win NCAA's.

another example of greatness, MARK SCHULTZ defending NCAA champ 167 moves up a wt to beat Ed Banach future Olympic gold medalist 16-8 in NCAA finals. Banach would win 3 himself. How great was Mark Schultz??

Russ Hellickson will tell you how LEE KEMP was unjustly denied by OT referees decision as a freshmen in NCAA finals vs Chuck Yagla-- future 3x World champ Kemp would have been the first 4Xer.

And up until about 1972 freshmen could not compete in NCCAs.

Bottom line theres alot of analyis & factors that can be used to determine, let's say a top 5, top 10 or even top 20 list. Naming a # 2 would be highly debatable after all # 1 is debatable, some historians like Mike Chapman of WIN say GABLE was the best, though he lost his last match. Many say UETAKE was the best.

AWN a couple years ago named top 5 in no order Uetake, Gray Simon, Cael, Dake and Dan Hodge. ...s/BobP



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on January 13, 2015

Quote from Bob Preusse's post:

"

Quote from Mark Niemann's post:

"There are a few names on Bob's list that made me pause. -- -- -- Bob mentioned Lincoln McIllravy - he didn't do it. He was close, but still didn't do it. "



Mark,
i know McIlravy though a 4x finalist didnt win 4, he won 3, but everyone i mentioned deserves consideration on the short list of all-time greats. Most of the guys mentioned were on the NCAA 75 Year Anniversry team, and add in a recent guy Dake. Perhaps by end of season Logan Stieber too.

alot goes into the equation, the short list, WHO U BEAT for example. Here's several examples, NATE CARR had to beat future Olympic gold medalist Kenny Monday twice in finals to win NCAA's.

another example of greatness, MARK SCHULTZ defending NCAA champ 167 moves up a wt to beat Ed Banach future Olympic gold medalist 16-8 in NCAA finals. Banach would win 3 himself. How great was Mark Schultz??

Russ Hellickson will tell you how LEE KEMP was unjustly denied by OT referees decision as a freshmen in NCAA finals vs Chuck Yagla-- future 3x World champ Kemp would have been the first 4Xer.

And up until about 1972 freshmen could not compete in NCCAs.

Bottom line theres alot of analyis & factors that can be used to determine, let's say a top 5, top 10 or even top 20 list. Naming a # 2 would be highly debatable after all # 1 is debatable, some historians like Mike Chapman of WIN say GABLE was the best, though he lost his last match. Many say UETAKE was the best.

AWN a couple years ago named top 5 in no order Uetake, Gray Simon, Cael, Dake and Dan Hodge. ...s/BobP"



What about Robin Reed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Reed



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Discussion Topic: Penn State v Ohio State - Sunday, Jan. 11th; 2pm @ Tom Ryan Arena #BlackOut
Ben Golden added to this discussion on January 13, 2015

I think in these conversations, it's impossible to know who was really "best." There are a lot of things that obscure the picture. Wrestling quality evolves with time so wrestlers get better, stylistic differences mean some wrestlers score more points than others but that doesn't mean they're better, quality of competition, etc.

So for the most part, I feel the need to put guys on tiers moreso than a well-defined pecking order. And even the tiers are pretty difficult to have much confidence in. Because there are so many wrestlers I haven't watched and because of all the obscuring factors listed above, a guy's resume (win percentage and qty of titles) kind of has to play a bigger factor in determining how "great" he is than it merits.

With that said, I think the top tier is Cael and Dake. Dake belongs right in that conversation with Cael in my mind. He forced the issue by bumping up to beat the defending Hodge trophy winner (who would have won the Hodge the vast majority of seasons) three times. I suspect Cael didn't beat anyone as good as Taylor in college. Some may disagree and throw out Cormier and Hahn, but think Taylor is better than those guys.

The other thing about Dake, though... he did it without a redshirt. This is really significant in my mind. A couple years ago someone on another site pointed out that Stieber is actually a month older than Dake. That doesn't take away from Stieber's career and I don't say it to sling mud or the like, but I do think it casts Dake's accomplishment in an even more impressive light.

Throw in the Retherford loss so late in his career, and I think Stieber will wind up on an elite tier with others right below Dake and Cael on my personal list (which counts for absolutely nothing).

That's for a paper list, though. As for who was actually "better," who can ever truly say?



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