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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Brad Proudfoot added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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Quote from Mike Taylor's post:
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"A couple of things stood out to me while watching the tOSU vs MSU dual. First, I'm amazed at how MSU has been okay with the state of their wrestling program for so long. Their coach was in his 23rd year there if I'm not mistaken and has a 43% win percentage? In no other sport (or other school I'd imagine) would that be tolerated. 1 ranked wrestler on the team? That should be unacceptable for any B1G school in wrestling.
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Mike, I agree with your assessment about Minkel/MSU program. His record since 2004 is ...
YEAR W L T B1G NCAA
2004 2 12 0 10th 34th
2005 7 6 1 8th 20th
2006 4 10 0 8th 18th
2007 3 11 0 9th 29th
2008 4 13 0 11th T-28th
2009 6 10 0 11th T-25th
2010 8 8 1 7th T-18th
2011 9 9 0 11th 43rd
2012 3 11 0 10th T-37th
2013 4 14 0 12th T-51st
2014 8 10 0 12th 32nd
58 114 2 33% Winning Percentage with 10 All Americans including one NCAA champion.
I do not understand how a Big Ten program such as MSU allows a program to perform at this level for over a decade without making a change. Further, I don't feel that I am being overly critical of the program. It is not like Mr. Minkel has had a few bad seasons. We have seen it become the norm.
I believe it is a fair assessment that if we saw this occur at Penn State, Iowa, or tOSU the fans would be extremely vocal. Maybe MSU doesn't have a vocal fan base to bring about needed change.
A little side note, there is a NE Ohio native on the staff that could possibly bring about the needed change to the program.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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Brad,
With the number of available Division I coaching jobs being relatively small, I'd think a MSU would have no problem finding a quality guy to take over the reigns and improve that program. Here are some guys I can think of right off the top of my head:
Lou Rosselli
Joe Heskett (hire him away from Army)
Cary Kolat
Pat Smith (heard he was coaching in Arkansas...is this correct?)
Terry Brands (if he wanted the job)
Bill/Mike Zadick
Frank Romano (has done wonders w/ NDC)
Sean Bormet
Chris Perry
Sure, not all of these guys listed guarantee success (some are very young). However, a guy like Kolat would bring immediate success to a program that has struggled for years. Given its location and conference affiliation there is no reason it should be in the state its in.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Brad Proudfoot added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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I agree, Mike. The situation is a bit perplexing. As you said, there are numerous capable individuals that could step in to that program, and at the very least bring a bit of new energy to MSU.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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Quote from Brad Proudfoot's post:
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"
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Quote from Mike Taylor's post:
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"A couple of things stood out to me while watching the tOSU vs MSU dual. First, I'm amazed at how MSU has been okay with the state of their wrestling program for so long. Their coach was in his 23rd year there if I'm not mistaken and has a 43% win percentage? In no other sport (or other school I'd imagine) would that be tolerated. 1 ranked wrestler on the team? That should be unacceptable for any B1G school in wrestling.
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Mike, I agree with your assessment about Minkel/MSU program. His record since 2004 is ...
YEAR W L T B1G NCAA
2004 2 12 0 10th 34th
2005 7 6 1 8th 20th
2006 4 10 0 8th 18th
2007 3 11 0 9th 29th
2008 4 13 0 11th T-28th
2009 6 10 0 11th T-25th
2010 8 8 1 7th T-18th
2011 9 9 0 11th 43rd
2012 3 11 0 10th T-37th
2013 4 14 0 12th T-51st
2014 8 10 0 12th 32nd
58 114 2 33% Winning Percentage with 10 All Americans including one NCAA champion.
I do not understand how a Big Ten program such as MSU allows a program to perform at this level for over a decade without making a change. Further, I don't feel that I am being overly critical of the program. It is not like Mr. Minkel has had a few bad seasons. We have seen it become the norm.
I believe it is a fair assessment that if we saw this occur at Penn State, Iowa, or tOSU the fans would be extremely vocal. Maybe MSU doesn't have a vocal fan base to bring about needed change.
A little side note, there is a NE Ohio native on the staff that could possibly bring about the needed change to the program."
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Former MSU champion Dale Anderson continually implores Minkel to resign, but apparently the powers that be at MSU don't place much stock on the performance of their wrestling program. This is strange when you consider the success of their football program.
Minkel has no relationship with MSU wrestling great Pat Milkovich, either. Sad.
My guess is that Minkel will stay at MSU just as long as he wants to stay.
http://www.iowawrestlinghalloffame.com/inductees/dale-anderson.html
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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What gets me about this MSU team is they aren't really even competitive. Part of that could be who you are getting but the other part is certainly how you are developing them.
When I watched the MSU/tOSU dual last night what I saw made me believe the strategy was simply do as little as possible and hope to catch the Buckeye wrestler being over aggressive. That's fine for a couple of matches where you are hopelessly overmatched and are simply trying to save a couple of team points in what is expected to be a tight match, but when it seems like your whole lineup is doing that it comes across as poor development of the wrestler.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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Quote from Steve Lester's post:
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"Saw parts of Iowa-Ill (4 duals going at once). Brands and Perry got in each other's faces in the post-match handshake line. Heffernan had to step in between.
Martinez looked great. Sub for Evans got a sudden pin with a couple of seconds left while trailing."
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Here's the take from an Iowa wrestling forum:
https://iowa.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=813&tid=178284518&mid=178284518&sid=940&style=2
For those who have access to BTN2go, check out the Iowa/Illinois dual from the point where Telford finishes his match.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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Quote from Steve Lester's post:
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"Brands and Perry got in each other's faces in the post-match handshake line. Heffernan had to step in between.
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"I'm not a good sportsman...."
-Tom Brands in the post match interview.
Well, at least he knows it ;-)
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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Quote from Mark martin's post:
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"Yes martinez is a hammer and a legitimate contender Sunday will tell the story when he wrestles Ness and brands is such a asshole I couldn't believe him and perry face to face had to be broken up"
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Brands is a fine wrestling coach but he has no class. I believe the Bucks will finish ahead of the Hawks at NCAA's.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Roe Fox added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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Quote from Mike Taylor's post:
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"A couple of things stood out to me while watching the tOSU vs MSU dual. First, I'm amazed at how MSU has been okay with the state of their wrestling program for so long. Their coach was in his 23rd year there if I'm not mistaken and has a 43% win percentage? In no other sport (or other school I'd imagine) would that be tolerated. 1 ranked wrestler on the team? That should be unacceptable for any B1G school in wrestling.
Anyhow, it was entertaining watching NaTo do his thing. It was obvious the kid from MSU was simply trying to slow him down by hanging on the elbow and that was it. I was glad the ref called him for stalling in the 1st because that was exactly what it was. You saw early in the 2nd that kid was done trying to compete and Nate just rolled up the points.
In the 149lb match, I didn't see Languis's figure 4 to the body that resulted in OT being extended to the 2nd 1 minute period. Even on replay I couldn't see it. Did anyone else catch it?
The match for Kenny Courts had to be frustrating. You could hear Tom Ryan yelling at the ref that simply sitting on a knee constituted stalling. The announcers appeared to be in total agreement with Tom on that one. Not sure why the ref let it go. If memory serves me correctly, I thought that was a point of emphasis on the rules. If it wasn't it certainly needs to be. Refusing to present yourself constitutes stalling. I am okay with it every now and again (kind of like backing up) but when it is done repeatedly and as a direct method to eliminate your opponent's ability to attack then it is text book stalling.
There's not much to say about the starters. I thought many of them looked flat initially but then again it could have been them adjusting to their opponent's style (which was typically one that was complete defense). In the end, the starters did what you'd expect (4 of the 6 wins brought in bonus points w/ a 5th just missing bonus pts) and the effort from the back ups was (for the most part) very good. I think the fact JDJ, Hunter, & Courts were in attendance for that meet gives hope they'll be available Sunday against ttun. We will certainly need them for that match."
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Mike: the figure 4 was unfortunate. On replay it appeared that the MSU wrestler was holding Languis' foot across his own stomach. When he let go it momentarily resulted in Languis having a figure 4 with his far leg, which he released within a moment or two.
We all have critiques about Jim Gibbons but he is very candid. His call of the Courts match and MSU stalling was right.
What are the options for Courts in that situation? I was taught engage and take them over the down leg. That just never seemed to work, though it could have been me.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Jim Fox added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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Observation from last night’s match. A win is a win for the team but….
The non-starters continue to show depth is a real concern. There is no reason that at least 2 of them should have won. In the room they are wrestling against top level kids every day. For the starters to improve the backups must improve. The other top tier programs lose a starter and their backup comes in and wins against teams like MSU. The only one that was in trouble from the beginning was Ray Gordon. Giving up 6”and maybe 40 lbs is a lot. I thought it was going to be a pin from the beginning. If he has to wrestle Coon Sunday it will be more impressive if he doesn’t get pinned.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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Courts did the right thing in staying safe. Rushing an opponent on his knees is a bad idea.
The issue was the ref not calling Rizqallah for stalling earlier in the bout. Should have hit him with it by the middle of the second period and forced him off his knees.
Courts has taken some hits on this forum but last night he faced a difficult opponent and put together a solid win. Kudos to him for his patience and smarts.
MSU and Indiana are both pathetic.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Roe Fox added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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"Courts did the right thing in staying safe. Rushing an opponent on his knees is a bad idea. "
I don't think "rushing" anyone is a good idea, unless perhaps at the end of a match to get a stalling call.
But I have wondered for a while how to counteract this "technique." Even great wrestlers often live off one knee. Logan has from time to time. Schrop and Graff are two others. I don't think anyone would consider those three stallers.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on January 17, 2015
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I would probably try to engage a tie to a front headlock and then snap his face to the mat. But, that's coming from a guy that used a lot of front headlocks and was successful with them. And, that's easy to say watching it from the sidelines. When he did get him on his feet and engaged in a tie, he had ankle picks ripe for the picking, but again, that's easy to say from the sidelines. Being engaged in it is another story. I was pleased that Courts stuck with it and won in SV! Hope that is a sign of increased conditioning.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 18, 2015
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I really enjoyed Nathan's match for a couple of reasons which illustrate a lot about college wrestling.
His opponent was good but you could literally see him mentally break at the start of the 2nd period. He had the effort for three minutes but competing at that level of effort took its' toll.
An important thing to understand is that when you mentally get overwhelmed, your position falters. Put another way, when your processor gets bogged down, then you process slower and become inefficient. So, basically the MSU wrestlers’ soft drive crashed. He has not developed the conditioning to compete at that pace. Pace kills. Prefontaine knew this. Brands knows this. But, now so do a lot of other people.
Steve Marianetti lost to Lincoln McIlravy by a dominant decision in the Big Ten Finals. He could not wrestle at the pace of which McIlravy competed. McIlravy won a title his freshman year by putting it into overdrive and over whelmed a fatiguing Abas. Abas was the better wrestler for the better part of that match but as we all know, the score at the end of the match is what determines the winner.
What is interesting is that within the span of two weeks Marianetti was able to reverse getting beaten dominantly to winning in the NCAA finals by changing a few things in his wrestling. In order for this to happen he had to figure out a way to attack McIlravy successfully and he had to readdress his ability to maintain position for a full seven minutes. If he had not changed a couple things, he would have arrived at the same result as the Big Ten.
With regard to Ken Courts, his difficulty is an evolutionary one. He has never developed the confidence to continuously attack for 7 minutes. Why does this happen? Have you ever been in a college room and competed at the D1 level? It is not an ideal growth environment for everyone. I think maybe 1% of the male population could handle it for 5 years, if that. The guys that do are pure warriors.
Over time, your style of wrestling evolves based upon a positive and negative feedback loops. Unless you identify a metric (amount of high quality attacks throughout 7 minutes and including overtime) and methodically try to improve it by gradual progression, it likely won’t happen. Most guys make gains by innate survival adaptability coupled with some coaching.
Let me use an analogy regarding weightlifting. Imagine you are trying to build up your bench press. You start and see relatively easy gains at first (high school), the you move on to advanced poundages (college). A lot of things can go wrong, which stall forward progress. Try to put too much weight on, and progress stops. However, by breaking down the movement into parts and adding small or even micro amounts of (weight) stress to the system, you can still make small attainable goals. Over time, those small gains add up. I have heard it referred to as the law of sustainable progression.
A college room works more like putting on your maximum load each day. The strong survive but sometimes still bench the same weight.
With Courts, he has evolved to wrestling a slower pace because the feedback loop has led him to that conclusion about his conditioning. Everyone on this board knows that once you hit the wall, you have a meltdown, hence the 125 MSU wrestler. Everyone has melted down and if you have’nt, then you simply left before it got real or have not pushed yourself to extremes.
What is great about Nate is that his pace is excellent. You can’t ask for more. He is in the 99.9% of conditioning.
However, what showed was the gray area of wrestling which he is not as skilled at yet. MSU off bottom did a headspin off bottom into leg attack/reversal. Whatever the engagement, you need to be skilled or otherwise stay away from it.
Nate is as good as McIlravy was his freshman year, but the quality of competition in his weight is way more evolved.
Lastly, My daughter really likes saying Toma-sello.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Mark Martin, Sr. added to this discussion on January 18, 2015
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Your right on with Kenny he has physical maturity, a good skill set but he is not mentally tough enough to push his self for 7 minutes or to push his self conditioning wise either that's just who he is
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