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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 18, 2015
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Wrestling a kneeling wrestler is dependent upon his penetration. He has already taken the change of level out of the equation, so typically he is cocked, locked and ready to rock. It goes back to a boxing adage, which is don't step into his power hand, circle outside of it. Translated to wrestling, you are going to circle away from his penetration. Some guys are really good at that position, so it goes back to wrestle from positions that you know.
Personally I think it can be an advantage to the guy on both feet, but certainly not if you are unprepared to wrestle this position. That is a good win as I like Rizqallah's wrestling and definitely a rd of 12 guy. I hope Kenny matches up with the right style of guy at NCAAs rather than a pace aficionado.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on January 18, 2015
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That MSU kid already beat Dominic Abonader (sp?) not long before going against Kenny. So, the kid certainly has talent.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on January 18, 2015
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"I really enjoyed Nathan's match for a couple of reasons which illustrate a lot about college wrestling.
His opponent was good but you could literally see him mentally break at the start of the 2nd period. He had the effort for three minutes but competing at that level of effort took its' toll.
An important thing to understand is that when you mentally get overwhelmed, your position falters. Put another way, when your processor gets bogged down, then you process slower and become inefficient. So, basically the MSU wrestlers’ soft drive crashed. He has not developed the conditioning to compete at that pace. Pace kills. Prefontaine knew this. Brands knows this. But, now so do a lot of other people.
Steve Marianetti lost to Lincoln McIlravy by a dominant decision in the Big Ten Finals. He could not wrestle at the pace of which McIlravy competed. McIlravy won a title his freshman year by putting it into overdrive and over whelmed a fatiguing Abas. Abas was the better wrestler for the better part of that match but as we all know, the score at the end of the match is what determines the winner.
What is interesting is that within the span of two weeks Marianetti was able to reverse getting beaten dominantly to winning in the NCAA finals by changing a few things in his wrestling. In order for this to happen he had to figure out a way to attack McIlravy successfully and he had to readdress his ability to maintain position for a full seven minutes. If he had not changed a couple things, he would have arrived at the same result as the Big Ten.
With regard to Ken Courts, his difficulty is an evolutionary one. He has never developed the confidence to continuously attack for 7 minutes. Why does this happen? Have you ever been in a college room and competed at the D1 level? It is not an ideal growth environment for everyone. I think maybe 1% of the male population could handle it for 5 years, if that. The guys that do are pure warriors.
Over time, your style of wrestling evolves based upon a positive and negative feedback loops. Unless you identify a metric (amount of high quality attacks throughout 7 minutes and including overtime) and methodically try to improve it by gradual progression, it likely won’t happen. Most guys make gains by innate survival adaptability coupled with some coaching.
Let me use an analogy regarding weightlifting. Imagine you are trying to build up your bench press. You start and see relatively easy gains at first (high school), the you move on to advanced poundages (college). A lot of things can go wrong, which stall forward progress. Try to put too much weight on, and progress stops. However, by breaking down the movement into parts and adding small or even micro amounts of (weight) stress to the system, you can still make small attainable goals. Over time, those small gains add up. I have heard it referred to as the law of sustainable progression.
A college room works more like putting on your maximum load each day. The strong survive but sometimes still bench the same weight.
With Courts, he has evolved to wrestling a slower pace because the feedback loop has led him to that conclusion about his conditioning. Everyone on this board knows that once you hit the wall, you have a meltdown, hence the 125 MSU wrestler. Everyone has melted down and if you have’nt, then you simply left before it got real or have not pushed yourself to extremes.
What is great about Nate is that his pace is excellent. You can’t ask for more. He is in the 99.9% of conditioning.
However, what showed was the gray area of wrestling which he is not as skilled at yet. MSU off bottom did a headspin off bottom into leg attack/reversal. Whatever the engagement, you need to be skilled or otherwise stay away from it.
Nate is as good as McIlravy was his freshman year, but the quality of competition in his weight is way more evolved.
Lastly, My daughter really likes saying Toma-sello."
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Rex, I love these linear explanations; I consistently benefit from reading them. Please keep them coming.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 20, 2015
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For the record, I called Ken Courts a pure warrior and made no mention of lacking mental toughness. It is way tougher to stick with something through the struggle while showing marginal improvement than it is to be successful out of the gate. That is grit. Not particularly gratifying, but, true grit.
His wrestling behaviors have been established and it is difficult to break the loop of established practice. Especially when you don't know how to do it.
He lacks the variable of outstanding conditioning. On a bell curve, he would be in the middle. Average in this regard. Right now it defines his wrestling, but it does not have to be that way.
On the matter of Steve Marianetti . Two weeks go by and he did not fall victim to pace again. He changed a few things (thanks in part to Jim Heffernan) and he had a different outcome. Specifically, he did not have to endure the wear and tear on his feet because he scored takedowns and his position did not fundamentally breakdown. An interesting thing happened as well. McIlravy’s did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7WSxK-J8vI
There is a two-sided coin to the variable of pace. The harder you push, the more likely your opponent’s position will falter but it is true that so will yours.
So, it becomes a matter of competing at a level of discomfort while maintaining position. First one that cracks loses. It is wrestling’s equivalent of playing chicken.
What does this mean in the context of Ken Courts?
Getting takedowns and staying in position are a must. He has to learn to compete while fatigued. I mean really fatigued. Not your garden variety lactic acid build up. The kind where you have a directive which overrides all sensibilities. The kind where staying in position overrides any other sensory input that could be deemed a distraction.
Handfighting. Learning handfighting that prevents wear and tear on your feet goes a long way. The elbow pass is a great way to counter the guy who wants to get on your neck and yank. There are other tactics which aim at the same target.
So, when you look at pace in this light, combatting it becomes objective and goal worthy. Not just some overwhelming and arbitrary task.
Conventional training has not addressed the conditioning issue for Ken Courts. Nor will it. He has been in the program for 5 years and during that time his variable of conditioning has improved marginally.
He is not Nate Tomasello or Kyle Snyder, or Bo Jordan. Those guys are different. Conventional training will get those guys were they need to be eventually. They enter the game as the outliers with no big issues.
I put the law of sustainable progression out there to help explain why some variables of wrestlers never seem to change. If a wrestler has an issue, then it needs a law of sustainable progression to address. It is too big a problem to slap a one size fits all methodology on it. If it does not receive LoSP, then it will continue to be an issue.
He is plenty tough. It is just that he is stuck at bridging the conceptual and conditioning gap in his wrestling. If it were a simple fix, it would have been resolved.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on January 20, 2015
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You stole my thunder, Rex. I was just getting on here to type the same thing. Excellent post.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Mark Martin, Sr. added to this discussion on January 20, 2015
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If you don't have wt issues or an injury and you are mentally tough you would push yourself harder in practice and get in shape like everybody else because being in wrestling shape comes from wrestling and drilling hard not from running etc ,I remember when st eds would wrestle one man out for 15 minutes in a 4 man group with a fresh guy coming in every minute.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Alex Creech added to this discussion on January 20, 2015
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Quote from Mark martin's post:
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"If you don't have wt issues or an injury and you are mentally tough you would push yourself harder in practice and get in shape like everybody else because being in wrestling shape comes from wrestling and drilling hard not from running etc ,I remember when st eds would wrestle one man out for 15 minutes in a 4 man group with a fresh guy coming in every minute."
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How do you know that he's not pushing himself? Isn't is possible that physiologically his body is just not capable of the same endurance as say Tomasello, no matter how much he wants it to be or works at it?
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Chris Thomas added to this discussion on January 20, 2015
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He does the same workouts as everyone else on the team. I think if it was that simply the problem would have been solved ( as Rex already stated). Kenny works just as hard as everyone else, and he wants to win more than we can imagine. I feel it's not a lack of mental toughness. Kenny might be wrestling to the best of his ability. Maybe he only can hold good position for 5 minutes against elite competition? Some people reach their potential early and plateau. Everyone can't be Stieber, Jordan, Snyder, and Tomasello. I still think Kenny will AA this year.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Bruce Andrews added to this discussion on January 20, 2015
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I didn't think that Mark Martin was implying that Courts wasn't pushing himself. I think he was simply indicating that the method used at St Ed's for improving wrestling conditioning is superior to methods that involve running and basic exercise.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Mark Martin, Sr. added to this discussion on January 20, 2015
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Quote from Chris Thomas's post:
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"He does the same workouts as everyone else on the team. I think if it was that simply the problem would have been solved ( as Rex already stated). Kenny works just as hard as everyone else, and he wants to win more than we can imagine. I feel it's not a lack of mental toughness. Kenny might be wrestling to the best of his ability. Maybe he only can hold good position for 5 minutes against elite competition? Some people reach their potential early and plateau. Everyone can't be Stieber, Jordan, Snyder, and Tomasello. I still think Kenny will AA this year."
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I've been watching Kenny and all the guys you mentioned minus snyder since they were kids and kenny has as much or more ability than those you named ,Kenny teched his way thru the beast of the east as a freshman at 135 ,lost to collin palmer by 1 as a freshman while collin was a senior and countless achievements before that like teching Felipe martinez Kenny was lean and in shape Google him if you wanna see for yourself
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 20, 2015
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Quote from Mark martin's post:
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"
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Quote from Chris Thomas's post:
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"He does the same workouts as everyone else on the team. I think if it was that simply the problem would have been solved ( as Rex already stated). Kenny works just as hard as everyone else, and he wants to win more than we can imagine. I feel it's not a lack of mental toughness. Kenny might be wrestling to the best of his ability. Maybe he only can hold good position for 5 minutes against elite competition? Some people reach their potential early and plateau. Everyone can't be Stieber, Jordan, Snyder, and Tomasello. I still think Kenny will AA this year."
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I've been watching Kenny and all the guys you mentioned minus snyder since they were kids and kenny has as much or more ability than those you named ,Kenny teched his way thru the beast of the east as a freshman at 135 ,lost to collin palmer by 1 as a freshman while collin was a senior and countless achievements before that like teching Felipe martinez Kenny was lean and in shape Google him if you wanna see for yourself"
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I think his amazing talents and skills in high school are part of why many of the Buckeye faithful are so hard on him. He just screams untapped potential. I think most agree he has all the tools to be an All American. They find themselves searching for an explanation why he seems to fall short when his upside is so high.
There are so many variables in college wrestling, without being directly involved in the situation, I wouldn't even enture a guess as to what is wrong. Truth be told, it may be nothing at all, just his individual development for better or worse.
I will say this, I have seen far lesser athletes and wrestler stand on that podium at the end of the year. It wouldn't shock me one bit if he ends up an All American when it's all said and done. I'm not calling it, but one or two guys like him AA every year. Why not him?
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Mark Martin, Sr. added to this discussion on January 21, 2015
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Yep your point on it is many many variables that goes along with college wrestling and i think Kenny will AA also but like you said when you've been watching and liking these wrestlers for so long you just want them to do what there capable of doing that's all.
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on January 21, 2015
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184: No. 2 Max Thomusseit (PITT & Graham) dec. No. 15 Nolan Boyd (OSU), 14-13
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 21, 2015
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"184: No. 2 Max Thomusseit (PITT & Graham) dec. No. 15 Nolan Boyd (OSU), 14-13"
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Is there video of that bout anywhere?
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Discussion Topic: Bucks On BTN Tonite
Mark Martin, Sr. added to this discussion on January 21, 2015
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you can see it on collegesportslive
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