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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on March 24, 2015

Been listening to the Flo Radio daily Podcasts and Willy and C.P. often discuss ways to improve the sport.

What would you do to improve competition?

Ideas I have heard, many from C.P. and Willy, that I find intriguing:

- Remove the 1 pt for an escape
- Get rid of Riding Time
- Only allow the RT point if you earn near-fall
- Make the TD worth 3 points



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 25, 2015

Quote from Ethan Moore's post:

"...

What would you do to improve competition?

Ideas I have heard, many from C.P. and Willy, that I find intriguing:

- Remove the 1 pt for an escape
- Get rid of Riding Time
- Only allow the RT point if you earn near-fall
- Make the TD worth 3 points"



The first question in my mind is why the changes at all?


But, in order to engage in conversation, I offer this...

I am not a fan of removing the E-1 altogether. I tweeted to C-Py that I would be more willing to go with this: Upon a restart the top wrestle can request to go neutral without awarding the bottom man a point. Any loss of control between the whistles is E-1.

I dig RT-1. However, I would amend it to (as your point #3 states) the wrestler with more than one minute must earn NF in order to earn RT-1.

I have thought about the TD-3 before. My only fear is that a wrestler would get two takedowns in the first period and then do nothing the rest of the match. So instead of increasing action, you've decreased it.

Whatevs.



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on March 25, 2015

Mark - I hear you, why change? I don't think change is mandatory, but everything needs to evolve. The sport could be more exciting.

I just want to find ways to reward offensive wrestling.

I would even suggest trying to find a way to add a third point to a TD to the action-initiator. Too many college wrestlers just wait for the other person to take a risk.

I think top wrestling should remain relevant, and I'm not against RT. In fact, it adds a lot of strategy. What I don't like is two minutes of the bottom guy getting to his feet and the top guy doing all he can to not let him get away. I saw this in several matches, literally at no point was the top wrestler close to scoring near-fall but he 'rode' for two minutes. Not exciting.

Other sports have legislated offense. The NBA/College basketball instituted the shot clock. NFL/College Football protect offensive players to promote scoring. I don't think it's a bad thing for wrestling to change to promote offense.



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 25, 2015

Nothing kills a match like ten years of riding with nothing happening. Let's speed things up:

1) two periods of 3 minutes each with a 30 sec break in between
2) You take a man down, you have to try and ride. If he escapes, he gets a point. If he doesn't but you can't come close to turning, ref stops action and puts wrestlers back on feet with no point awarded. Hence, riding still has meaning.
3) Passivity instead of stalling. You get called passive, opponent gets choice of positions. So, he can take down and try to escape.

Someone once suggested making the first TD worth 3 points. Intriguing.



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 25, 2015

Quote from Mark Niemann's post:

"I am not a fan of removing the E-1 altogether. I tweeted to C-Py that I would be more willing to go with this: Upon a restart the top wrestle can request to go neutral without awarding the bottom man a point. Any loss of control between the whistles is E-1.

I have thought about the TD-3 before. My only fear is that a wrestler would get two takedowns in the first period and then do nothing the rest of the match. So instead of increasing action, you've decreased it."



E-1 -- don't like getting rid of this at all. You'll just see top man pick up guy and carry out of bounds even more than you do now.

TD-3 -- I not violently opposed to that.

Agree that changes don't need to be made -- with exception that please be a little bit more aggressive on stalling calls -- and have stalling calls, like injury timeouts, give choice of position.



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on March 25, 2015

Here's Pat Milkovich's recent take on riding:

(from http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Forums: "Stalling is going to kill our sport")

So, if the bottom man does absolutely zero to free himself, or cannot extricate himself, he gets rewarded? And because the top man has the ability to control the bottom man, top man gets penalized and taken out of a position of advantage? We want a rule that takes the bottom man out of a position of disadvantage and puts him into a better situation? Because many of today’s wrestlers compete in freestyle, they have lost the ability to move on bottom, and not coincidentally, the top man does not learn how to ride correctly. Back in my day, wrestlers who did not learn proper methods to escape or prevent being ridden got pounded, and rightly so. Also, back in the day, you were awarded 2pts. for two or more minutes of riding time...so you wanted to get out on bottom or learn how to ride to cancel out. Bottom/top wrestling was much more active.

More often than not back then, I remember the bottom man getting called for stalling. The rules were not structured to make the top man responsible for the bottom man's action. In overtime matches now virtually everyone takes down position on his choice. The irony is, he wrestles like a maniac to get out in 30 seconds. Somewhere in there is a lesson. I am fundamentally opposed to the entitlement mentality that if the man on bottom can’t be turned, or get away, then he should get a free out. There should be consequences for being unable to remove himself from a position of disadvantage or if he's weak in a position, not a gift.

Modify the riding time award to one point for every 30 seconds of control or one point for every minute, and then top/bottom wouldn’t be so boring. The bottom man will have open up more, and the top man will have to work harder, which should result in a more spirited and entertaining battle. And, by the way, not all top/bottom wrestling is boring, as I have witnessed some incredibly boring neutral wrestling.

Give more points for control on top and I would bet that you will see not only more and better wrestling, but more pins as well. Here's why; in order to get out, one has to take more risk, which can translate to getting caught and put on one's back. Down wrestlers today do just enough to not get called, while the top man has to bust his chops trying to work for a fall with the thought of getting called for stalling if he can't...Why should the top man be responsible for all the action? Trust me, unless something unusual happens you are not going to put a decent kid on his back the way the rules are structured now. He's just not going to take the risks that would allow that. What promotes fan appeal is when there is continual action from both wrestlers who have been trained in escapes and riding. That’s exciting. Make the bottom man more accountable for the action, and to do that, award the top man more points for being in control! I will agree that if top and bottom wrestling begins to resemble anything remotely like John duPont humping Dave's legs like that brief clip of the 2am workout in Foxcatcher then something would need to change....

Mat wrestling and escape techniques have all but disappeared. Coaching wrestlers to be proficient in the three disciplines, top, bottom, and neutral are what make folkstyle so difficult and exciting. Learning how to ride and escape are the two most complicated aspects to teach as a coach and to learn as a wrestler. Those routines require much time and work and it's hard. I can fully understand why many people would like to see all wrestling transition to freestyle. In my opinion, top and bottom mastery is what separates great wrestlers from good wrestlers, especially if they are evenly matched on their feet. Quite frankly, as much as I love wrestling, I have to admit that it is boring for me to watch three boring periods starting in neutral only to suffer through a drawn-out overtime where the match usually gets decided from top or bottom anyway. Overtime should not go past the second period. It should be a true sudden death. One minute first period, and if no one scores, flip the disc and give that anklet his choice, top or bottom. Escape wins or ride out wins. If the coaches and wrestlers have been diligent in the pursuit of learning the top/bottom disciplines, the coin toss would be irrelevant because he is well trained in either position.

If they are even on their feet, then the game comes down to who is better in the top and bottom position. To me, giving the bottom guy a free up because he is inept is comparable to telling John Smith that he can't shoot a low singles in a match because his opponents are not good at stopping it or countering it...



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on March 25, 2015

More from Pat Milkovich, from the same thread:


I am of the opinion that every wrestler should earn his keep from any situation. If you are on bottom and don't like being there, then you need to learn how to get away or turn the tables. Giving someone who is in a position of disadvantage a free out is another example of the wussification of out society. We can't have a valedictorian because it makes the other students (who had the same opportunity), feel inferior. Because those kids didn't want to take the time, make the sacrifices, practice the discipline, to get good grades, we have to penalize those who did.

So if someone is good with legs...we create a rule that says he can't throw legs anymore because the guy on bottom doesn't know what to do? How a rule that says if I can't hold someone down..then he can only try to sit out to get away.

Taking someone out of a position of advantage simply because the bottom guys is inferior is a penalty to the top man. We will claim it's boring because the top man can't turn or pin the bottom guy. At what point does the bottom man become responsible to create some action? I still maintain that awarding more points for control will stimulate more spirited wrestling and better wrestling.

Folkstyle is an American made product. Why should we change because other countries wrestle freestyle? Why not have them come over and wrestle folkstyle... They won't because top and bottom is harder and they would have their butts handed to them.

The more we gravitate to freestyle, the less interesting wrestling will become (and has become). Much of the knowledge about top and bottom wrestling is dying off and not being passed on. Many of the younger coaches have not had the schooling in the science of riding and escaping.

Stalling is not the problem. Coaching kids to be able to wrestle from any position is the problem. Calling more stalling is not going to get ESPN to broadcast wrestling in prime time...nor put fannies in the seats. We compete too much, spend less time "coaching." and look for "entitlements" for those who don't want to take responsibility for their misfortune...(like being on bottom and not being able to get away...not my fault you have no clue what to do and your coach doesn't either...so don't penalize me)

Anyway....

Thanks for your compliments, but I want you to understand that I do not post on here to get them. I post because I am passionate about our sport and I am disappointed to see how it has deteriorated to the state it is in now...



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Doug Brandt added to this discussion on March 25, 2015

His concluding remarks on the thread:

I have a very different take on stalling. If I have done the things necessary to be ahead in the match...why do I have to keep being aggressive... I'm not the one who is behind...you are. With few exceptions, in virtually every sport, stalling is a tactic and when used discreetly and correctly, it is can be very beneficial. It was impressed upon me early in my wrestling development that you beat a really good kid by one, two, maybe three points. You beat him with excellent technique, superior strategy, outstanding defense, and a thorough understanding of the rules. Generally speaking, you won't pin a really good kid because he won't put himself in a situation that will allow that. He knows enough not to take the risks that accompany getting put on his back. At least that's my experience with it. Stalling is not killing wrestling... twelve hours in a gym for a day or two, rules that constantly change and almost no one can understand, a season that goes on forever (year round), too many tournaments and not enough emphasis on local, conference, state, cross-state rivalries, and the infusion of freestyle concepts into folkstyle, are some of the interest killers for wrestling. Keep it simple stoopid (misspelled for emphasis) and I believe that wrestling will gain some popularity.



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 25, 2015

I heart me some Pat M.



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on March 27, 2015

What do you think of some variation of this (From TR Foley's Friday Mailbag)?

3. Going to a knee before contact is made from neutral should result in an automatic stall call and point. Falling to your hands and knees blocks action and is the ultimate in stalling. Not a difficult fix, but an epidemic in the lighter weights.



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Nicholas Sestito added to this discussion on March 27, 2015

Quote from Ethan Moore's post:

"What do you think of some variation of this (From TR Foley's Friday Mailbag)?

3. Going to a knee before contact is made from neutral should result in an automatic stall call and point. Falling to your hands and knees blocks action and is the ultimate in stalling. Not a difficult fix, but an epidemic in the lighter weights."



Would this fall under the category of the opposing wrestler should be developing his short offense to combat the knee and hands down (3 point stance)? I don't have a technical wrestling background so I can't answer if this position is actually considered stalling or more of a certain stance one takes during wrestling. I've seen some posters merely consider this a point that many wrestler have a poorly developed short offense which results in a stall in the action as neither wrestler can advance position. This point is why I see many people complain that it is a stalling type of stance when in fact it may just be a lack of a developed wrestling game like Mr. Milkovich stresses in the thread copied above.



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Steve Lester added to this discussion on March 27, 2015

The most aggravating for me to watch was the Michigan State upper weight Rizqallah. He'd back up 6 feet and go to hands and knees. Ridiculous.



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 27, 2015

First, I respect all the opinions I'm reading and the people expressing them. But I disagree with those of you looking to make wrestling more like "the old days"--as opposed to less.

Pat Milkovich wants the clock turned back. You can't. The best thing about college wrestling is that the stalling call is used less. The worst is the riding. I'm for changes that will create more action and scoring. I think the sport needs to continue to evolve.

My biggest concern is how little publicity the sport receives. D1 wrestling will continue to be marginalized unless it is made more telegenic (is that the word I'm looking for?). We need to get Ohio State v Iowa on ESPN at 8pm on Friday night. We need 6 million people tuning in (number pulled from the nether regions of my derrier...I don't know how realistic it is). As long as one guy can hold another guy down with no real action, we have a problem. Pat M wants more emphasis on pinning techniques but guys are too good and well trained. The Logan Stiebers are built for riding and turning. The Hunter Stiebers aren't.

Riding can still matter if you need to do it to take time off the clock. But I like watching wrestlers on their feet. More importantly, so do most non-wrestling fans when given a chance to watch. My feeling is if neither wrestler can improve from top and bottom, it's a stalemate esp. when bottom wrestler is on a base. If he's on his belly, it's different.

I'm not arrogant enough to believe I'm absolutely right but there's got to be more done to create action. Going in the other direction is not going to work. And it's not going to happen.

Exhibit A for my point of view: Watch this video of a college match between Howe and Burroughs. I think the mat wrestling looks ridiculous: http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/238052-Askren-Herbert-Super-Match/video/404502-Burroughs-Edges-Howe#.VRVtCvlQMbM



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Steve Durose added to this discussion on March 27, 2015

Quote from Steve Lester's post:

"The most aggravating for me to watch was the Michigan State upper weight Rizqallah. He'd back up 6 feet and go to hands and knees. Ridiculous."



How'd that work out for him?



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Discussion Topic: Ideas to improve college wrestling
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 27, 2015

Hank -- I think what Pat is saying is that if there is an emphasis on mat wrestling, it won't be as boring as it is now. He may have a point because look at the scores of matches back then. Man they were high scoring affairs.

What I love most is his "why reward ineptness" thoughts.


Hank -- also need a mailing address. The Golden Plunger is ready!!!



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