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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 1, 2015
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Bob: Reading recommendation: Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 1, 2015
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Bob and Mark:
If it were as simple as taking personal responsibility, we could make a huge dent in this issue."
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I'm not so sure people want to be held accountable, and that's part of the problem with the above statement. Moreover, when those in leadership positions make excuses for bad/destructive/evil choices, the action(s) get(s) dismissed for what the actions truly are. Eventually, I would say, some actions even become acceptable.
I'll spare you any moral/Tanakh lessons, but my, oh my, the parallels. Check out Adam & Eve's responses when confronted with their failure.
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Growing up in single parent/no parent homes with little or zero role models...the instability of moving from home to home...being stuck around overwhelmingly negative influences...having no health care so that every medical issue becomes a trip to the hospital...seeing your lives ignored by most of society except when something bad happens...being hungry, being abused..."
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All of these are awful things. Some of which I have experienced. But which ones give the right/privilege/permission to do wrong?
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"You can't just say "be responsible." While there are always people who will provide examples of rising above circumstances, most of us are products of our environments. This has always been the way it is. "
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I agree that “most of us are products of our environments”. And to that I would say that’s part of the problem.
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"I know both of you have good hearts and want people to have better lives. But you're misguided if you really think people regardless of circumstances should just suddenly behave better."
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I had a “too-long” response typed out early in response to Brian’s initial post in this thread. It dealt with relationships. In order to bring about any change one might want, it has been my experience that worrying about what is happening in Malaysia, Uzbekistan, Perth, California, Fort Wayne or even Cincinnati – FOR ME – would be of little use. So I spend my time talking to my actual neighbors. I ask of their needs, “hire” their kids for services, go bowling with them, share tools, and/or make requests. I used to think the former was analogous to burying my head in the sand. But by doing the latter I have found that is where true change can occur.
This is one reason that I find it easy to drive 2.5 hours for a sandwich. Because it ain’t about the sandwich! It’s why my wife let's me ride to Iowa City or St. Louis with a friend.
Alas. tl:dr
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 1, 2015
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Bob: Reading recommendation: Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell."
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Will read.
Wow! A few responses since I began to type mine.
Mike Stann: I would hope all would agree with your point that "personal responsibility cuts both ways".
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 1, 2015
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My apologies to all if I have come across as sanctimonious. No more to say on this topic. Appreciate all thoughts.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 1, 2015
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"My apologies to all if I have come across as sanctimonious. No more to say on this topic. Appreciate all thoughts."
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your doing ok Hank, your words have caused no unfair pain, only provocative necessary & deep thought, any more of your input welcome -- we need more input from English teachers like Joe Marino and English lit majors like yourself.
Being well read is half the battle. Being able to express ideas is the other half. Having the courage to act in the face of dire circumstance is above & beyond. ...s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Lou Demas added to this discussion on May 4, 2015
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Here a few things that I think need to pointed out on the subject matter at hand. the Boston Tea Party was a political statement they dumped the tea into the harbour they did not loot and take monetary or material gain. Also many of our founding fathers opposed the institution of slavery even some of those who had slaves, they felt it was tied in with the economic system but it needed to be done away with.One must always, when reviewing history keep it in context of the time period and cultural values of that era. Bear in mind the standard of living is much better for people living in the inner city of Baltimore than those live during the time of the American Revolution.
I think what Peter Angelos said, was just more left wing lip servce. I wonder how much business the Baltimore Orioles do with corporations that support these political elite he is condemning.if you don't like political elites don't vote for them, if you don't like what corporations don't buy their goods and services.For all those who truly believe the plight of the inner city black population is caused by political elites supported by corporations money I
say the answer is simple don't do business with them, you don't have to go posttest Wall Street and stopped traffic just stop giving them your money.then before they move their giant corporation to another state or out of the country they will stand in front of their stockholders and their board members and say listen if we make this move we will lose more money than what we will gain. This is the only way you can live guilt free of your part of the plight of poor black Americans. Or you may want to consider that black women are 3.-5 times more likely to have abortions then white women and 80% of abortion clinics are put minority communities,I think if potential black lives mattered first maybe actual black my lives my matter also. or at the very least give equal access to poor white women to abortions that way the black community know that white lives don't matter as much also or maybe the welfare state help steal the black communities human dignity. maybe I'm over simplifying the causes of these riots also but I graduated from an inner city high school where I was a minority and if a riot broke like that of know for a fact a lot of my high school friends would have been stealing as much as they could just because they were stealing whatever they could before the riots and they would love a bunch white liberals who live in a vacuum writing articles that justify their actions and stand in solidarity with tbem.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Christopher Henderson added to this discussion on May 4, 2015
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As a former Ohioan, I liked to pick on Cleveland, which had games cut short by rowdy fans during the Beer Night Disaster and Bottlegate. But at least it never had to play a game in an empty stadium because the streets weren't safe enough to come to a sporting event.
I live near Baltimore now, and the things I know about it are how it has very high taxes, an unfriendly business climate, violent crime, and badly performing schools. It looks like they need to try some different policies or new leadership. They've been run by one political party since 1967 and they've been bleeding population and prosperity ever since. Places like New York City switch up their mayors' party from time to time and it seems to benefit greatly compared to Baltimore. They should give it a try. One party rule by either party tends to lead to complacency. There's nowhere to go but up!
And Baltimore has come back from hard times before. Here is a photo to illustrate this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore#/media/File:Baltimore_Fire_1904_-_West_from_Pratt_and_Gay_Streets_3a.jpg
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 4, 2015
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 4, 2015
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to succeed people have to want to work, people have to prepare to get work, people have to have a good attitude--
people, no matter where we are from, or our color or religion or ethnic background must compete for jobs esp the good jobs, theres only so many of them.
Employer will hire the most able, best attitude & best prepared (unless its the Govt in which case nothing logical applies.)-- Hank knows this, he's an employer.
some people have had the silver spoon, but very few, most Americans decend from immigrants who endured alot of hardship to get here, most for the opportunity. Many started with nothing but made a good life for themselves.
Its here for the taking, no one said it would be easy though, and for some yes its tougher than for others-- but its here.
the Governor of Maryland said 200 businesses were looted & destroyed in the rioting, those hard working citizens (mostly black) had rights too, families to support, employees.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mike Stann added to this discussion on May 4, 2015
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Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
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"
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Bob and Mark:
If it were as simple as taking personal responsibility, we could make a huge dent in this issue."
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I'm not so sure people want to be held accountable, and that's part of the problem with the above statement. Moreover, when those in leadership positions make excuses for bad/destructive/evil choices, the action(s) get(s) dismissed for what the actions truly are. Eventually, I would say, some actions even become acceptable.
I'll spare you any moral/Tanakh lessons, but my, oh my, the parallels. Check out Adam & Eve's responses when confronted with their failure.
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Growing up in single parent/no parent homes with little or zero role models...the instability of moving from home to home...being stuck around overwhelmingly negative influences...having no health care so that every medical issue becomes a trip to the hospital...seeing your lives ignored by most of society except when something bad happens...being hungry, being abused..."
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All of these are awful things. Some of which I have experienced. But which ones give the right/privilege/permission to do wrong?
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"You can't just say "be responsible." While there are always people who will provide examples of rising above circumstances, most of us are products of our environments. This has always been the way it is. "
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I agree that “most of us are products of our environments”. And to that I would say that’s part of the problem.
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"I know both of you have good hearts and want people to have better lives. But you're misguided if you really think people regardless of circumstances should just suddenly behave better."
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I had a “too-long” response typed out early in response to Brian’s initial post in this thread. It dealt with relationships. In order to bring about any change one might want, it has been my experience that worrying about what is happening in Malaysia, Uzbekistan, Perth, California, Fort Wayne or even Cincinnati – FOR ME – would be of little use. So I spend my time talking to my actual neighbors. I ask of their needs, “hire” their kids for services, go bowling with them, share tools, and/or make requests. I used to think the former was analogous to burying my head in the sand. But by doing the latter I have found that is where true change can occur.
This is one reason that I find it easy to drive 2.5 hours for a sandwich. Because it ain’t about the sandwich! It’s why my wife let's me ride to Iowa City or St. Louis with a friend.
Alas. tl:dr"
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imo this says it all for personal responsibility. Can one imagine if before the riots what might have been if the police had practiced the kind of personal responsibility Mark talks about to the citizens of west baltimore and the citizens of west baltimore had this kind of personal responsibility for the police officers in their neighborhood. I think Mark is right on that this is the way to true change. Hank thanks again for this "off topic" and to all who participated without the rancor and unkindness that most boards bring to this subject. Perhaps someone out there got some food for thought. That's the last I got until the U.S. Open.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 5, 2015
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Quote from Mike Stann's post:
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" Can one imagine if before the riots what might have been if the police had practiced the kind of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY Mark talks about to the citizens of west baltimore and the citizens of west baltimore had this kind of personal responsibility for the police officers in their neighborhood. I think Mark is right on that this is the way to true change. "
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yes Mark is wise beyond his years, "personal responsibility", hmmmm a novel idea (he came u with?) The world could be a beautiful place if only -- -- but u know what Mike, it aint and it wont be. Maybe in the "next World".
So we have to make the best of this one with cops --
most fair-minded & diligent, some even heroic but some who shouldnt have been hired in the first place-- cops trying to do an impossible job and a citizenry many of whom are angry at the world about their plight and perceived wrongs against themselves.
(btw to all those so inclined, 12 inches of "quote-copy" is the bane of threads.)
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 5, 2015
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"...
(btw to all those so inclined, 12 inches of "quote-copy" is the bane of threads.)"
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Sometimes I do it just imagine you cussing your computer screen, fists clinched and raised towards the heavens, shouting at the top of your lungs, "WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY!?!?!?!?!??!"
But usually I do that on Yappi. ;-)
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 5, 2015
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Quote from Mark Niemann's post:
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"
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"...
(btw to all those so inclined, 12 inches of "quote-copy" is the bane of threads.)"
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Sometimes I do it just imagine you cussing your computer screen, fists clinched and raised towards the heavens, shouting at the top of your lungs, "WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY!?!?!?!?!??!"
But usually I do that on Yappi. ;-)"
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ah so, ur a man of nonpareil wisdom Herr Niemann-- i will now have a Vienna sausage sandwich that a famed local purveyor sent me, u may have heard of Mr Brisket--- then i will, as all older men do, take a nap & re-awaken to a kinder world.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Lou Demas added to this discussion on May 5, 2015
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I think the bigger question is why the lack of peronal responsibility in this generation? Kids use to drive to school with there guns in there gun rack and nobody gave it a second thought but now the same idyllic to make farming communities are not only having problems with minor substance abuse,they're having serious problem with crack and heroin abuse. I really don't think lack of responsibility is the problem, more a symptom of a bigger issue, in fact one might say they have extreme personal responsibility but only to themselves.
They have taken God of of schools and preach evolution only, they won't even allow room for intelligent design. A woman's womb is no longer sacred and the spark of life that may grow within it is now disposable. to make matters worse they gave no viable substitute. Ask an addict in rural America or an intercity looter who Voltaire or Nietzsche are or name a single stoic philosopher? No, most of today's generation would not have no idea who they are. So what are they left with? Feeling that they are only an animal. Bears are known to kill their own male offspring to reduce competition for breeding. I'd say that's taking extreme personal responsibility,that's just what animals do. The looters took responsibility to get personal gain, drug dealers sell drugs for personal gain taking personal responsibility to make money for themselves. Peter Angelos does business with corporations because it benefits himself.
It is always easy to blame the politically elite or evil corporations but they can only do well where there is a moral deficit. So we either need to developed a system that ensures morality for modern animal or maybe bring religion back into the public square at least till you can prove that God doesn't exist.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 5, 2015
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thank u for thought provoking comments Lou -- --
my long-held opinion is the decline started with the Vietnam War era in the mid 1960s-- if we go back and look at America prior to the Vietnam era and thereafter once the chaos & rebellion caused by Vietnam took hold.
Mid 60s riots in cities- the spread of the drug culture, now we got heroin in the burbs & small towns, the inner cities have been ruined by hard drugs -- the era fostered the me generations fully exhibited by the Narcisism of today-- Standards everywhere went way down after Viet, schools included- a person need not be accountable, everything became someone elses or "the systems" fault.
oh i know only a fraction of the population went to Viet however the effect of the era was crushing & long lasting. It was brought home on TV every night.
Anyone who lived thru it as an adult remembers like it was yesterday. It looked like the entire country was coming apart at the seams-- and it was. Makes today look like a day at the beach.
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