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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Joe Marino added to this discussion on May 5, 2015
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I want to thank Bob for inviting me to join this conversation. But I will respectfully (albeit regretfully) decline. As a public servant my "rights" to an opinion are not as clear cut as others. For 27 years I have tried to promote and provoke thought, analysis and passion in young people about a variety of ideas. If I can think of a good quote that adds to your discussion I will share it. Much of your discussion has centered on "personal responsibility" and the "good old days." Stanisław Jerzy Lec, a 20th century Polish philosopher and aphorist, once said, "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." Maybe that has something to do with what's going on here in this world of ours ! :-)
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Shel Harper added to this discussion on May 6, 2015
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This is not the best place to talk about religion, but Lou Demas raises the subject with what I think is confused and misleading thinking that cries out for comment. Here is mine.
The courts have "taken God out of schools" and properly so. The magnificent principle of church/state separation requires it.
"Intelligent design" is a religious notion, not a subject for science class. Schools don't "preach" evolution, they teach it---a theory in the same way that gravity or our sun-centered solar system are theories.
You often hear that ours is a "Christian nation." Absolutely not. We are a nation of mostly Christians, but we bear no religious label.
I can't prove that God doesn't exist, but I'll gladly accept evidence that he does.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 6, 2015
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You believe in gravity???
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 6, 2015
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Shel Harper added to this discussion on May 6, 2015
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Mark, I dunno about that gravity theory. But it's probably valid because it got a batter thrown out of a game years ago. After striking out he threw his bat in the air, and umpire Ed Rommel said "if that bat comes down, yer outta here." It did. He was. (True or not, makes a nice story.)
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 6, 2015
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I have been having this talk with my dad for the past 5 years and everyone brings up good points. I will add a couple thoughts as they seem relevant.
Everyone needs something to believe in. Whether it be God, self, money, drugs or wrestling for that matter. It is usually some combination of things which make life liveable.
My dad and I are split on this one, but in all truthfulness both answers are right and many more play a role. It is a complex system. My dads take is that the overall decline in the US has been the result of decline in the family. Without having to answer to your family, you are likely to do what you want. F everyone it is about me seems to be the resonating war cry.
I see corporate cronyism and the political elite that takes care of big business as a driving force. People at the top take care of themselves and really aren't interested in the anything besides padding pockets and getting an advantage. They'd have you believe that system would utterly flop without their brilliance. The truth is that most CEOS ride out market trends and are in the right place at the right time. Geniuses---not really, just really good at playing the game.
The other thing of note which I have been reflecting on a lot is sensitization. If you have allergies and have done any reading on the topic you know that it is a overwhelming response to a given stimuli. It doesn't matter how much of the antigen is encountered on your second exposure. It is going to be a flood of response that is neither correct or mediated. Riots are a lot like anaphylaxis. It just takes exposure to a specific type of event to set off a cascade of life threatening events.
The jihadis just shot in Texas were sensitized to blasphemy towards Mohammed. The Heroin addict seeking that next score is overwhelmed by the need to fulfill it. Whenever you get sensitized to something, it is going to cause you to behave irrationally in the context of normal behavior. Anyway sensitization is a key concept in a lot of social issues.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 6, 2015
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 6, 2015
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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" My dad and I are split on this one, but in all truthfulness both answers are right and many more play a role. It is a complex system. My dads take is that the overall decline in the US has been the result of decline in the family.
The other thing of note which I have been reflecting on a lot is sensitization. Anyway sensitization is a key concept in a lot of social issues."
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Rex, imo your Dad is right, "decline of the family" is huge---- but again look at Viet era, decline started there with rebellion young vs WWII generation, old values discarded, young men sent to fight old mens wars, drug culture emerges, thats where it started.
Ask your Dad, he knows, i'll bet he recalls when a layer of tear gas hovering over the Ohio St U campus was a constant in late 60s early 70s.
can i have more explanation of the "sensitization" concept ? BobP
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Rex Holman added to this discussion on May 6, 2015
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Sensitization is a concept that I pilfered from the immune response to describe human behavior. I believe it parallels peoples reactions to their environments. It is just a way for me to understand it better. In the Freddy Gray case, people were of a heightened awareness and readiness to act since the Michael Brown shooting. That was the sensitization. People were primed for another situation to occur that looked the same and were ready to respond in a manner that was reinforced through the Ferguson riots. BTW, this is a symptom of the much larger problem that we are addressing. The lack of guidance and the lack of good jobs underwrite these symptoms.
Typically in a hypersensitive immune response, there is an overreaction due to a common stimulus that was learned in the primary response. When the secondary response activates, it sets off a cascade of events which can cause system failure.
Once you become sensitized to something, all it takes is the stimulus to set you off. Totally reactionary.
Take Ian Miller at the NCAA tournament. What set us off was the injustice done to Ian. Upon that much we can agree. Other stuff, maybe not so much.
The reaction seems to be hardwired into people much like an immune response. If people are not taught a way of doing something, then it is left up to the individual hierarchy and some dysfunction usually occurs.
Everyone needs to learn the correct response to any situation. Truer words were never spoken in wrestling. I see this in my kids behavior whether it is competition or fulfilling responsibilities. I know this to be true in my own life.
Without the guidance from positive role models or rather with the guidance of negative behavior, a person can engage bad behavior in the bat of an eye.
Quite a few things work this way.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 6, 2015
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Rex, thanks for the further explanation.
"Sensitization" seems to be a simple concept, i.e. the tendency for knee-jerk reactions to events based on previous experience we've seen or been involved with. If i understand it correctly, its as old as mankind itself, no new phenomenon.
Inner cities have suffered terribly from loss of jobs, the easy availability of hard drugs, broken homes, and the despair it has created in people. The situation is tragic beyond words.
U spoke of corporate cronyism & the political elite, well the "hope and change" president Obama, his admin has yet to prosecute even ONE -- not even 1 -- CEO of a major bank or Wall St firm whose reckless perhaps even criminal activites almost brought down the entire American economy in 2008.
as Bob Dylan sang, "U don't need to be a Weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing." ...s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 6, 2015
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 7, 2015
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Quote from Shel Harper's post:
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"...
The courts have "taken God out of schools" and properly so. The magnificent principle of church/state separation requires it.
..."
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Mr. Harper - how does a nation balance these two portions of the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."?
It seems by doing the one, you violate the other.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Liam Bateman added to this discussion on May 7, 2015
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It seems to me that the true message of the spiritual icons that have come and gone has been one of forgiveness and caution against judgements of any kind toward others. The split from the spiritual to the physical has led us to put more emphasis and "belief" into the physical world. Anyone who has studied or knows the basic concepts of particle metaphysics knows this stance to be dicey at best. It is clear to me that the mind is the stem of creation, physical or otherwise and any deviation from that will lead to the celebration of the ego, where doom surely follows. Pride cometh before the fall. We all strive toward a better version of ourselves and to one day find ourselves back in the Graces of our creator where the fascinations with death,fear,guilt and hate will seem but dream. The physical world cannot stand and death somehow exists within fundamental building blocks that know not of death. This has always confused me and lead me to the conclusion that there is a creator and my will to create in the way I choose has led me from his keep. Such is free will. Science, for me, has strengthened my belief in spirit and mind. Maybe I'm swinging for the fences, but i prefer thinking in this way.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 7, 2015
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Quote from Liam Bateman's post:
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"It seems to me that the true message of the spiritual icons that have come and gone has been one of forgiveness and caution against judgements of any kind toward others. The split from the spiritual to the physical has led us to put more emphasis and "belief" into the physical world. Anyone who has studied or knows the basic concepts of particle metaphysics knows this stance to be dicey at best. It is clear to me that the mind is the stem of creation, physical or otherwise and any deviation from that will lead to the celebration of the ego, where doom surely follows. Pride cometh before the fall. We all strive toward a better version of ourselves and to one day find ourselves back in the Graces of our creator where the fascinations with death,fear,guilt and hate will seem but dream. The physical world cannot stand and death somehow exists within fundamental building blocks that know not of death. This has always confused me and lead me to the conclusion that there is a creator and my will to create in the way I choose has led me from his keep. Such is free will. Science, for me, has strengthened my belief in spirit and mind. Maybe I'm swinging for the fences, but i prefer thinking in this way."
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Some serious thinking going on in your dome, Mr. Bateman. I'll have to re-read a few dozen times but I appreciate the intellectual integrity of your comments.
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Discussion Topic: Off Topic
Lou Demas added to this discussion on May 7, 2015
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Bob,
I'd say a communist secular humanist worldview was what we were trying to stop in Vietnam. (to Long to discuss right or wrong with the Vietnam War)I would say the Vietnam era is a rough timestamp for when a very clear and distinct fall from us viewing our selves as humans who were created with a purpose to a higher form of animal with no purpose. with dire consequences I might add.1961 Va start date of the Vietnam War for U.S,,1962/63 prayer taken out of public schoos,l 1973 US Supreme Court legalized abortion Vietnam war ends couple years later officially.
This I why I argue the root cause of societal problems are not in corporations or political elite but in humanities world view of itself as a whole.I love Mr Marino's quote " no snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible" what was it like 51% voted for Obama for president if they all stop shopping at Walmart for a month there would be no Walmart or Walmart would definitely change its practices as it comes to how they pay their employees.People scream the corporations are acting in their self interest when they're doing the very same thing. And what about the shareholders themselves maybe those retired are helping support the economy of retirement community and if they're not making as much money people are losing jobs in local economy. its obvious by the way things are going that people or in general thinking of how somebody else has to change and not themselves.
Now without God,why would there be a reason for anybody to want to change themselves in any meaningful way, if their world veiw is that they're just a higher form of animal.Even every act of altruism is just an act of self interest, if there is no free will and there is no God. The dignity of life is no longer valued? prayer is out of schools and taboo in the public discussion. And yes science is taught and preached as religion in schools. Sciences dogma is that you're allowed to believe in one miracle, that something came out of nothing but no more miracles after that we can only give you one. I personally don't have a problem with evolution as a theory and the best theory to date, however there is a huge gap in evolution on how things evolve and they can't even come close to explaining the Cambrian age explosion of diversity of life explosion.I can still think it's the best theory out there is the theory of evolution because because I don't have a problem with some lack of evidence but science has a problem with the lack of evidence of God. Again one miracle only allowed.
However there have been scientific studies done that show statistical that college students read an article on that there is no existence of free will then they took a test we're more prone to cheat than those who read an article without wasn't the premise. what struck me out about the study is in general I believe they're were using the more educated in this study and they were more prone to cheat what happens when you have less educated people under socio economic hardship and they are bombarded with messages that there is no no God and their animals in which their children can be destroyed with in the womb with no more thought then you would destroy an animal.This is what I would argue again is the root cause of all the societal problems . the Declaration of Independence.stated we are all created equal by our Creator and there's so many other references to God in the early founders of all writing s but people want to cling to the separation of church and state means no government functions should have be able to have religionious overtones when in fact it meant they did not want to have a state religion like the Church of England. Presidents are still sworn in with the Bible.Now if you don't like religion and don't believe in God I don't have a problem with that but at least try to offer up something in replacement I can teach morality and ethics. You would not raise your children like the state is trying to take care of its citizens. I thought exercise would be to try explain to your children if they're not really loved just the biological by product of their mother and father to pass on their genes and they have no intrinsic self worth of other that of to procreate and pass on their genes.
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