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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Rex Holman added to this discussion on September 20, 2015
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Bob-
Much obliged.
Hank-
I use ambiguous and difficult based upon my experience in trying to improve in the sport of wrestling. With the right coaching and environment, one can become great. Without it, good luck. Unfortunately, I fell within the latter group for my Senior freestyle career.
When you sign onto a program you are trusting that the coach and program will give you the necessary means and support to improve and meet your goals. It may happen or it may not as the insight and feedback are the drivers of improvement. If proper insight and feedback happen, then learning occurs. Otherwise, no. Marginal improvement may occur, but you will likely see the same product that has been witnessed before.
With regard to OSU, they have knocked some performances out of the park. Logan Stieber, Nathan Tomasello, & Kyle Snyder. No other program is comparable in the last couple of years. It’s Shangri -la for a blue chip (without issues).
With regard to Freestyle Worlds and performances, Guys with outstanding offensive attacks win. Burroughs, Green, and Snyder. Their respective attacks are outstanding. The rest of Team USA, not as good comparatively.
Part of a problem to which you allude lies in the difference in styles. Folkstyle allows you to wrestle from your knees without concern for loss of points. Folkstyle allows you to wrestle from top. Guys (like myself) who depended heavily on these two aspects of the style are handicapped when transitioning into freestyle. It simply takes away a lot of your arsenal.
Guess what? Those techniques that you hardwired into your programming are still there. Overwriting hardware is not an easy thing especially when you try to do it on your own or without the aid of a coach who is actively helping you with the right insight and feedback.
However, some wrestlers style is not weighted heavily on those areas, i.e Burroughs, Green and Snyder. They score from explosive attacks. Wrestling from their knees and riding are not central to their game.
Metcalf. Outstanding wrestler. However, so much of his formative years was spent on the premise of wearing an opponent down and compromising their position with a consequent score. Comparatively speaking that makes for weaker attacks as they are founded in an opponent of lesser position rather than an opponent in great position.
True measure of an outstanding attack is when a wrestler is so good at his offense that he can take another down when they are in seemingly great position. Again, Burroughs, Green and Snyder. The first sign that I got from Snyder having a World Class attack was when he went through Nathan Burak like it was nothing. Burak had that look like-> did that just happen. I don’t even think he scored the takedown but the explosiveness of the attack was incredible.
Reece is a great wrestler. However, I will say that his thinking is wrong. He is a showman and looks for lots of opportunities to score. That is not how to win at that level. He gets an A for artistry. I follow him on FB and I know he puts a premium on strength, but it is not applied in the right way. At the end of the day, you want to be a world champ or medalist, the best practice is to have an attack that works against anyone in the world and a defense that shuts them down. His wrestling is way too open ended. Way too much left to chance. The counterargument is well look at Sadulaev and his style. He entertains lots of different attacks. Great, but at the end of the day when he is up against a formidable opponent, a couple solid attacks will win. If he can create a novel attack in which he is well versed and maintains an advantage, then kudos to him, but that is the exception rather than the rule. How did Slay beat Satiev? Takedown, gutwrench, and ………………………………great defense. He was not looking to score late in the match. He was looking to shut down Satiev and say eat that American sammich.
Best practice is pick and choose when to attack. Limit the positions engaged to only those in which you have advantage or Don’t win.
Is this best practice misinterpreted or easily lost sight of->Yes. Can someone watching infer something minutely different which is subtly different from best practice and project it onto athletes or themselves->Yes. Does that subtle difference of opinion create a style which is promotes ideology over objectivity->yes.
Therefore, in going full circle, you must be very careful with whom you align yourself as some people teach objectively what is necessary to win and some people preach ideology based on subjectivity.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Chris Thomas added to this discussion on September 20, 2015
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Rex, thanks for the detailed analysis of our freestyle international team. It seems the athletes with the most explosive attacks tend to medal for the USA. However, how can you change Reece's wrestling habits if that's the way he always have wrestled? Maybe this is the only way he can compete at his highest level? I agree, that his strength has to improve positionally to medal. I think he has the attributes and tools to medal at this level. How about Snyder? His ceiling seems endless! This is a young man who finished runner up at Nationals in March. He beats former Olympic Champ J. Varner three times and becomes World Champ at the tender age of 19. Have you ever seen a drastic progression like that in a few months? He seems to always control the ties against everyone regardless of strength or size. JB has to be considered an all time great. I wouldn't want anyone else representing our country at that weight class. He competes with so much proud and grace. Win or lose I have never seen him have an excuse even if justifiable.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 20, 2015
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"Bob-
When you sign onto a program you are trusting that the coach and program will give you the necessary means and support to improve and meet your goals. It may happen or it may not as the insight and feedback are the drivers of improvement. If proper insight and feedback happen, then learning occurs. Otherwise, no. Marginal improvement may occur, but you will likely see the same product that has been witnessed before.
With regard to Freestyle Worlds and performances, Guys with outstanding offensive attacks win. Burroughs, Green, and Snyder. Their respective attacks are outstanding. The rest of Team USA, not as good comparatively.
Part of a problem to which you allude lies in the difference in styles. Folkstyle allows you to wrestle from your knees without concern for loss of points. Folkstyle allows you to wrestle from top. Guys (like myself) who depended heavily on these two aspects of the style are handicapped when transitioning into freestyle. It simply takes away a lot of your arsenal.
Guess what? Those techniques that you hardwired into your programming are still there. Overwriting hardware is not an easy thing especially when you try to do it on your own or without the aid of a coach who is actively helping you with the right insight and feedback ."
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The above quote explains clealy many of the problems with our current system in regards to winning at the international level.How many more of our great wrestlers are we going to content with not being able to compete successfully at the world level because of the reasons given in the above quote?
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on September 20, 2015
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Quote from Lou Demas's post:
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"Mark,
My phone went goofy,have to fix it later!
basically,I'm right you're wrong"
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Agreed.
You make me laugh. I like that.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on September 20, 2015
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Quote from Lou Demas's post:
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"The above quote explains clearly many of the problems with our current system in regards to winning at the international level. How many more of our great wrestlers are we going to content with not being able to compete successfully at the world level because of the reasons given in the above quote?"
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Why is it the NCAA's responsibility to prepare guys for international success?
Nobody is forcing our great wrestlers to compete in the NCAA's.
I guess I just disagree with your premise that "our great wrestlers...not being able to compete successfully at the world level."
There are great wrestlers around the world that don't compete successfully at the world level. We aren't the only ones. I guess it depends on what "compete successfully" means? Is that win a gold? Win a medal? Are you so sure that if we switched to freestyle only that all of our great wrestlers would "compete successfully"? No guarantee.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 20, 2015
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Lou: Good points as to Rex's comments.
FWIW...I'm not advocating that we ditch folkstyle. But college has to evolve so we have more activity. Riding time rewards stalling...period...end of discussion. For every Logan Stieber, there's 20 guys who simply work to hang on and take time off the clock. That's not good for wrestling. The Pat Milkoviches of the world feel we need to call stalling more aggressively to fix this issue. But we all know from experience that the stall call is not objective. It's too problematic and leads to unfair outcomes. Change the rules to create more action. Become a better sport.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on September 21, 2015
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"[Why is it the NCAA's responsibility to prepare guys for international success?
Nobody is forcing our great wrestlers to compete in the NCAA's.
I guess I just disagree with your premise that "our great wrestlers...not being able to compete successfully at the world level."
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seems to be 2 camps, the Hank/Demas/Strope camp, the Hiatt/BobP camp.
my stance same as Brady, no one forced to wr in college, not high school for that matter. Go straight to the OTC if u r good enough and the World is your goal.
We can look back at previous posts and things have definitely been said by the free camp that infer we should do away with folk in HS & college and replace with free, so our best wrestlers r prepared for the World.
Should college football outlaw the "spread" because it doesnt teach the "under center" that QBs must use in the NFL ??
sure we all agree college needs to reward aggression and penalize stalling. But change to free-- not imo.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on September 21, 2015
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an aside, Burroughs HS resume? how many would guess it, champ in folkstyle at Sr Nationals, but no Fargo that Ron Good or Dan Fickel can recall and he's the expert, yet so great now in free where he apparently didnt compete in HS.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 21, 2015
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"an aside, Burroughs HS resume? how many would guess it, champ in folkstyle at Sr Nationals, but no Fargo that Ron Good or Dan Fickel can recall and he's the expert, yet so great now in free where he apparently didnt compete in HS."
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Snyder, Green and Burroughs are great in free in spite of folk, not because of it. Their styles are better suited to it.
If we want to be better at international competition, we need to do more to prepare our best prospects in free and greco. The college system and it's plodding rules are not the best preparation.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Rex Holman added to this discussion on September 21, 2015
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Chris-
If someone has been doing something their way their whole life, chances are slim they will change, unless they have a come to Jesus moment (my way of saying life altering experience/epiphany)
Most people are not interested in discussing how it works based upon merit rather ideology. That being said, I was 29 when I realized that I needed to significantly change the way I approached wrestling. It was late in the game and I started "discovering" things that I, as a semi explosive wrestler could do to slow things down, stay busy and frustrate my opponents and score. I knew I had been beaten by the game as I didn't even know the rules. A lot of my thoughts were based upon ideology and things I had past success with. They did not translate to beating the best.
Bottom line, blueprint for success is focus on your best attacks and become so good at them that no one can stop them. Limit the areas of engagement so that they give you advantage. Develop a defense that shuts your opponent down and become great at managing a match.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on September 21, 2015
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"
Bottom line, blueprint for success is focus on your best attacks and become so good at them that no one can stop them. Limit the areas of engagement so that they give you advantage. Develop a defense that shuts your opponent down and become great at managing a match."
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Rex,
watch much Blair Academy over the years under the master Jeff Buxton? u probably havent but u would have enjoyed --
Buxton taught this to perfection, simple, expedient, brutal, handfighting, pummeling, tieups-- selective & very patient with tkdwns, usually the high crotch. And then velcro on top which made a 1 point lead monumental to overcome. It was a thing of beauty, and not even a college team though they trained like one.
and in the Olympic styles they were superb as well, there was a carryover.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on September 21, 2015
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Snyder, Green and Burroughs are great in free in spite of folk, not because of it. Their styles are better suited to it."
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I'd agree with this specifically for Green. Burroughs, even if trained specifically for FS since birth wasn't winning before 2011 - he says himself he was a later bloomer when it comes to wrestling. His attacks now are so much better (including his double) and more diverse than when he was in college. Why? I'm not sure I'd say it's because he's only training in FS. I'm not sure he would either. Many factors go into it. Maturity (body, mind, spirit).
But he and Snyder are both absolute studs in folkstyle. Difficult to say Snyder is better suited for free when he could/should have been an NCAA Champ as a true frosh if he doesn't get thrown and pinned - something that can happen in either style.
I do agree that folkstyle rules need tweaking (would love to see same out of bounds rules in folk and free; return to feet after "X" amount of time on mat; actually call stalling; etc.) but to blame our lack of success on it I think is mis-directed as it didn't stop us in the 70's, 80's or 90's.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Dan Strope added to this discussion on September 21, 2015
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Bob,
I never meant to imply that we need to do away with folk. I believe both can coexist but I do think we need rule changes in folk to make it more fan friendly and with more scoring opportunities. Some of those rule changes should resemble some of the freestyle rules. Reading Brady's post in regards to Burroughs's improvement only makes me wonder if he benefited with his double leg because it could be worth 4 points in freestyle as opposed to 2 in folk. Just a thought.
Brady,
The freestyle tech opportunity from a trapped gut/leg lace is EXACTLY what folk needs. It gives hope that despite the current score that no underdog is ever out of a match until the final whistle. Much the same way that a pin USED to in folkstyle before the de-emphasis of the pin.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on September 21, 2015
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Quote from Dan Strope's post:
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"Brady,
The freestyle tech opportunity from a trapped gut/leg lace is EXACTLY what folk needs. It gives hope that despite the current score that no underdog is ever out of a match until the final whistle. Much the same way that a pin USED to in folkstyle before the de-emphasis of the pin."
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Difference of opinion here. Not a fan of one guy clearly the better wrestler, winning by 9 and gives up one td to gut/lace and he loses (unless it was the American with the gut/lace in which case my homerism overtakes my "wrestling morality"). I like the dominance leading to points in folk over the exposure leading to points in freestyle. The who scores what and the "how in the world did the officials score that sequence that way" is a big turn-off for freestyle. The Novachkov vs. Russian quarters sequence was horrendous. The reffing in Cuba vs. Russia at 57kg was brutal. (Maybe this is why Russia wins so many medals) -- you see far far less of that type controversy in folkstyle.
I will watch any wrestling and root like crazy for my favorites no matter the style. Beauty in the eye of the beholder type discussion here -- and I'm thankful for such a forum that we can do so.
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Discussion Topic: kyle snyder..WORLD CHAMP
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on September 21, 2015
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"[Why is it the NCAA's responsibility to prepare guys for international success?
Nobody is forcing our great wrestlers to compete in the NCAA's.
I guess I just disagree with your premise that "our great wrestlers...not being able to compete successfully at the world level."
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seems to be 2 camps, the Hank/Demas/Strope camp, the Hiatt/BobP camp."
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3 camps actually, you conveniently left out the dominant Hayes/Niemann "We Love Wrestling. That Is All" Honey Badger Camp.
(Neimann, Uncle Bob has been fairly subdued on the topic; let's see if we can harangue him into going all "Gran Torino" on us like he used to do at the family Thanksgiving when we were growing up...)
Niemann....Go! :)
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