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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 8, 2016

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

" Our discourse has become frayed to the point where we can't have a serious conversation. "




of course Hank we are having a "serious conversation" right now.

with your statement u open the door to all that Big Govt does, yet it often fails due to it's own stupidity, rigidity, laziness --and unintended consequences (like creating generations of those who are able to learn job skills & work but they don't).

a Businessman friend of mine suggests emphasis on skills training. He is blunt, however his proposal makes sense, this is what he writes:

"If Bernie and Hillary are going to offer something and have the taxpayers pay for it, then offer FREE SKILLS TRAINING ....I have many friends who own companies that cannot get enough skilled workers who want to work. There are already too many college grads who are waiting on tables and serving drinks. Let's get people off their lazy asses and help them get some kind of skill."



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Pat Altvater added to this discussion on July 8, 2016

I believe that I have said this before on OWN, but my wife had told me many times that when I correspond on the wrestling blog,

'STAY AWAY FROM TWO TOPICS: POLITICS AND RELIGION!

I offer my wife's wisdom to my fellow wrestling fans!

(She also told me to be careful with my 'political uncorrectness!)



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on July 8, 2016

No problem with skills training. In fact, I think it should begin in junior high....along with real sex education and how to balance a checkbook and save money 101.

We can have a convo on this forum but we don't represent political parties. Our politicians are incapable of compromise. We could come to all sorts of enlightened agreements.

Bob you love to twist my words. You running for office?



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Steve Lester added to this discussion on July 8, 2016

"There is, however, one area where there is truth and that is the unraveling of the middle class and why that has taken place. The decline of manufacturing in this country--and the decent jobs provided--coupled with increases in costs of living (health care, higher education, etc...) have made it almost impossible to work, save and retire. Plus the machinations in our financial markets (whether we're talking about wall street run amok or tax code changes which have pushed more and more wealth to the top 1% of Americans). These things--which are very hard to see or understand--have vastly more impact than welfare cheats of corrupt union officials (very easy things to spot)."

Excellent.

It is very irritating to see the following explanation made by the Washington establishment*:

The flyover country middle class has failed to adjust to the New Normal.



*Narratives probably tested at DC cocktail parties before going into print.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on July 9, 2016

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"No problem with skills training. In fact, I think it should begin in junior high....along with real sex education and how to balance a checkbook and save money 101.

We can have a convo on this forum but we don't represent political parties. Our politicians are incapable of compromise. We could come to all sorts of enlightened agreements.
..."



Hank: I once heard an interview given by one of the Tuskegee Airmen. He made a wise and insightful statement concerning a trend in American education as he reflected on his experiences as a child compared to those that he perceived one or two generations later- we (they; people!?) are systematically removing a necessary component in public education - teaching a skill; a method of earning income with the use of one's hands.

Even as a young kid, when I watched, his statements hit me like a ton of bricks. It was eye-opening then, even though I didn't have the experience to match that knowledge. As I look back I am amazed at what sage advice that individual was spouting. Moreover I was touched by his ability to reason between what was happening between (across) generations.

And here you are, some 30 years later expressing similar sentiments.

Which makes me wonder...how have "we the people" lost so much control over what goes on in OUR public institutions? Hank - do you think your desires are that far out of the norm that no one else in your school district wants the same in schools? Stated differently, do you think that the vast majority (75%, 80%, 90%) want the same!? If so, what is preventing that group of parents from making it happen? (As I typed that I considered one answer. But I'll be back.)



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on July 9, 2016

What's preventing that - we taking back control - federal/state mandated testing backed by federal/state $.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 11, 2016

Niemann & Hank...I'm all for skills training, vocational schools and career academies. College isn't for everyone, and even if you're on the college track, having a skill is a good idea. I certainly wish I knew my way around a car or a computer better.

The problem implementing these programs is who gets "chosen" to participate and who doesn't? Is it the students' choice? The parents'? The schools'? Do (academically) underachieving kids get tracked early and pigeon-holed into labor paths? When are these decisions made? Are we talking elementary school? Middle school? High school? There's a (perceived) risk of poor students, buildings and districts dis-proportionally moving that way. While it would help lift people out of poverty with higher paying skilled labor jobs, it could also (potentially) limit opportunities for certain students and create an even more rigid socioeconomic system than we already have.

Also, I disagree that the reason we don't get things done is because we don't like hard work. Productivity in America is high. Innovation in America is strong. Most people in America work for their money. And, while hard work often pays off, it's a myth that the harder you work the more money you make/success you have. The working poor are some of the hardest workers in America. It's not that we're afraid of hard work or that we're soft or lazy. It's that we can't agree on what actually needs done.

Think about it, Americans agree on almost nothing. Even things that would seem to be universal like fighting/ending terrorism have a wide range of opinions on how exactly to go about it. You can't have a country this big, this rich, this free and this diverse (a BIG DIFFERENCE from many other countries) without the marketplace of ideas be huge and ranging. The system is set up to be slow. It's set up to be inefficient. Change isn't supposed to come fast. In American democracy real change happens at a slow crawl. That kind of change is deliberate. It's safe.

I find it incredibly frustrating, but I don't know what system I think would be better.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Steve Lester added to this discussion on July 12, 2016

"The schools'? Do (academically) underachieving kids get tracked early and pigeon-holed into labor paths? When are these decisions made? Are we talking elementary school? Middle school? High school?"

I had occasion to be thinking about this based on a discussion elsewhere. I saw it when I was in junior high for sure, but the selection process probably began in grade school. Classes were split based on academic achievement, which also included national test scores. There was also a selection process evident for teachers. For example 120 students were split into three classes based on achievement (also perceived intelligence) and those student would know which of three teachers there were getting the NEXT semester and could discuss it ahead of time. This continued into high school.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on July 12, 2016

Michael, Steve, and even Brady: all three of you kind of, if not directly, hit on my thought of why it can't happen and that is the quest for equality.

Neat in theory. Disastrous in practice.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Bruce Andrews added to this discussion on July 13, 2016

In our school district a major goal of the school board is to eliminate the "achievement gap" which I interpret as meaning that we make the dumb kids smarter and the smart kids dumber.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 13, 2016

Quote from Mark Niemann's post:

"Michael, Steve, and even Brady: all three of you kind of, if not directly, hit on my thought of why it can't happen and that is the quest for equality.

Neat in theory. Disastrous in practice."



What's the alternative, striving for inequality? I don't need to strive for equality of results, or even to lessen the "achievement gap". There's always going to be an achievement gap. I just want the achievement gap to be representative of the potential and skills of the individuals. Too often the achievement gap is the result of factors that have nothing to do with an individual's potential, skill set and work ethic.

If a government isn't striving for equality (of access and opportunity and treatment by the law), then it's openly aiding, promoting and perpetuating institutional inequality. That should make everyone upset...except maybe those who have been chosen by the system to be the ruling class.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Brian Nicola added to this discussion on July 13, 2016

#feelthejohnson



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on July 13, 2016

Michael: I guess I should have posed it as legislating equality. The opposite of legislating equality is not legislating or even striving for inequality but rather not having a government agency attempting to legeslate the equality.

It is impossible to do. Moreover, I do not see that as a necessary task the government should do. Individuals should be free to rise and fall on their own.



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 13, 2016

But do they rise and fall on their own? And is a society that allows them to really what you want?



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Discussion Topic: Cleveland Right Now
Mike Stann added to this discussion on July 14, 2016

Quote from Mark Niemann's post:

"Michael: I guess I should have posed it as legislating equality. The opposite of legislating equality is not legislating or even striving for inequality but rather not having a government agency attempting to legeslate the equality.

It is impossible to do. Moreover, I do not see that as a necessary task the government should do. Individuals should be free to rise and fall on their own."



Mark government wouldn't have to legislate equality if we as a people practiced it. However that has not happened in our history. Unequal pay for the same job, child labor, poll taxes, segregated schools these are just some of the evils perpetrated by the thought that some Americans are inherently better than others.



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