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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Lou Demas added to this discussion on August 27, 2016
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Brady,
If you look at the medal count from the Rio Olympics and all the past olympics you will find the U.S has domimated in quite a few sport's track and field, basebal,l basketball swimming etc.
Countries that aren't successful certain sports have also changed because they've renewed effort to be successful on those sports like China was never strong and weightlifting but they are now.So not all countries that solely who trained in freestyle and Greco are going to be great freestyle and Greco countries just like every state here practices folksyle and there's maybe a top-five states that are really good at it.
Many folkstyle fans to point out a few anomalous great wrestlers who succeeded the World level and say, look it worked here but never mention all the other NCAA champions will had no success at the world level.
Now USA Wrestling has done a lot better and I believe we're going to continue to get better trying to get young athletes to train more and more in freestyle and Greco so to be successful at the international level but at what cost many of these kids have no social life outside the wrestling room. they have to give up a year of high school or the whole summer to try to be competitive both freestyle and folkstyle or Greco at the same time.
So if the styles just compliment each other then it should be no problem if we reversed it and kids train mainly freestyle and Greco and only some
folkstyle and these young wrestlers would be prepared with all the skill sets required NCAA Wrestling.
So if what folk style suppoters say is valid, we can all teach top and bottom par terre , throws at the edge of the mat or how not to expose your back in the scramble during the high school season with no adverse effects to a wrestlers high school season and then continuing to mainly training freestyle Greco and also not hinder their Collegiate wrestling progress.
Sorry if I'm somewhat redundant I would be a ecstatic if somebody could show me how to train the wrestlers in a manner of which I could mainly focus on Greco and freestyle and they could go into college and be successful, I'm all ears.
side note: Roye Oliver who was an Olympic alternate in 84 said when John Smith hit his low single on him it felt like John Smith broke his leg. I think many people did not speak of john smith as being athletic because he was so technical but I suspect he may have been far more athletic than he looked or people gave him credit for.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on August 27, 2016
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Many NCAA Champs could never make the teams.
I think a reason kids have to train in summer and "give up a year" is because there aren't that many coaches at high schools that COULD train kids in FS CURRENTLY because they only wrestle folk and have little desire/drive to do so. Outside a few outliers, programs that are successful do train FS. OH, at the HS level is sadly lacking FS opportunities. I grew up in MN and we'd have 4/5 tourneys a weekend to pick from. Here it's one in Cincy and one in Clev one the same weekend if you're lucky.
Lou, there are many things I'd love to change about wrestling at the youth level, the HS level and tweet the college rules. I just don't see that our best at folk can't compete at FS.
When I was in Jr. High, Canby HS in MN had a foreign exchange student - Toumo Karila from Finland. Never wrestled folk style. Lost his first two matches being DQ'd for clasping -- ha ha. Didn't lose again on his way to a state title. He was taught a stand-up on bottom and the rules of what he couldn't do on top. His Greco/FS training took over. He beat a Jr. National champ and Marty Morgan that calendar year. If memory serves me correctly, he was an Olympian in Greco in either 88 or 92. I think his state finals match is on YouTube with some of his other international matches,
Edit: just looked him up on YouTube. His state finals match is there along with his world Greco final from 1994. Here is a news clip about him prior to the Olympics.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-I1UgOckxno
My side note -- I've talked to three guys that wrestled Smith. All said they wrestled guys stronger, and faster but if/when you made a mistake, he capabilities on it. Every time. He was athletic no doubt, I just define "physical freak" different.
2nd side note. Ran into your son at a wedding in Mechanicsburg in early July. Said hi then was reminded by a former wrestler of mine that we had given him a ride back to OH from a PSU summer camp when he was either entering his Jr. or Sr. year of HS and we met when you picked him up. Small world.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Lou Demas added to this discussion on August 29, 2016
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Brady,
I do remember you dropping off Josh it was right off 36, in fact it bothers me to have to disagree with you on this subject because of that. it's a whole lot easier for me to disagree with a person who I might even think he's a good coach but don't think much of him as a human being than to disagree with somebody who is a good coach and a good person.
That being said a lot of people think we can win in this current system but the stats don't lie. We have averaged 6 or 7th in the world over the past 15 years. Russia traditionally has dominated and we're getting beaten by countries with a population of 3 million or less.
I think what might help illustrate this,is try to imagine the Olympics in folk Style with Russia primarily training in freestyle. Who beats wrestlers like Logan,Rolands Burroughs, TaylorJenkins and countless other great folk style wrestlers in Folkstyle,. take Cox for instance he's in a gold medal match in Folkstyle. Had he known the rules better in freestyle he may have known he was losing and would been in for gold medal match instead of a bronze..change it around and we may have the occasional Russian wrestler saying I don't know much folkstyle but I know wrestling that's why I got the bronze.
Also as a coach if you had a son whose ultimate goal was to be an Olympic gold medalist how many folkstyle practices would you really take to him if the U.S was mainly training freestyle. would you really think I am going to primarily trained him folksyle and that won't change his odds on becoming an Olympic gold medalist? because that's now what we're doing to America's Finest wrestlers and now with the average age of a gold medalist down to 22.67 years old I don't see that getting much better unless these kids are practically living at the Olympic Training Center and sacrificing so much of their lives because people don't want to make some rule changes.
side note:I only knew one guy who wrestle John Smith so with you saying 3 guys said that he's not that strong, I'm even more impressed with what he accomplished
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on August 30, 2016
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Lou, I'm ok with disagreeing, in fact I welcome them because many times these discussions cause me to think deeper on these subjects. Sometimes I stay in the same place, but more often than not I shift slightly in on direction or the other.
I completely get what you are saying about training in FS and how I would train those wanting to win Olympics. I would mainly train in FA or Greco, and then adapt to the HS season because I think wrestling is but a slice of life, something God has given us to enjoy, work at, and possibly even excel, but it is not thee end goal. Glorifying him through it, fulfilling the great commission through it is.
With that said, I think the variety is good for wrestlers, to see varying technique, to adapt, challenge, and expand their minds when wrestling. Change of pace is also good. I honestly think that much of how our youth wrestlers are trained is as much, if not more, of an issue than the style of wrestling.
I love all three styles we compete in. I love aspects of each of them more than some aspects of others. I think there are techniques that if we did a better job of teaching and did a better job of weight training (I'm thinking Dennis Hall's lifting program here) we'd be performing very well at the world and Olympic championships.
The avg age of winners now being younger than ever has, in my opinion, more to do with the format of the current tournament (all in one day) more so than anything else. Think that alone will drive those like Snyder and Cox to be more active in FS than the normal kid. But for Aaron Pico, going the FS only route got him the close to no cigar award losing to Frank the Tank who is quite limited in FS technique.
Interesting to note, the countries that have routinely beat us, you see many of their athletes now being stripped of medals. Even the playing field concerning the doping and you may see different results.
Side doping note, Franklin Gomez was screwed at these Olympics, we all saw it. But did you know that he lost to Besek Kudakov in a 1 pt match in 2012 in an opening round match (which was a rematch of their World Fnals in 2011) - stupid blind draws. Turns out BK was doping and its reports that his Silver medal is being stripped. Really helps out Franklin (typed in sarcastic font) who has had back to back raw deals at the Olympic Games.
2nd side note. John Smith was my wrestling hero growing up. I wanted to wrestle like him, talk like him, wear the same shoes, etc. So I ate up everything he said and everything he did. So when I got a chance to talk to three guys that wrestled and spent time around him, I asked tons of questions and was shocked to hear how casually they talked about his physical skills (still far better than so many normal wrestlers but avg for the elite level). On the flip side was how highly the spoke of his technical skills. Remembering those conversations years later are what changed my attitude and thoughts on how train my wrestlers.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Lou Demas added to this discussion on August 31, 2016
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Brady,
We agreed 100% on one issue. I often say, even if you could guarantee that if you sent your child to one school or training facility an Olympic gold medal, the price would not be worth it if he or she lost their soul in the process.
Any achievements, whether it's Olympic gold medal, World title,NCAA Champion or state champion, is who you were,Who you are when standing in front of God is most important!
Pico will right around the average age of a gold medalist next olympics cycle whereas frank will be considered over the hill, especially with the current format.I think the bigger statement is the the caliber of wrestlers he placed above as young as he is, they again trained primarily in folkstyle.
Also I wouldn't claim the moral High Ground when it comes to cheating Russia might have more of a state-sanctioned program but the US has no shortage of athletes who cheat.
I'm a big fan of training other disciplines I've got quite a bit of flack for recommending Judo and Jujitsu to wrestlers.Coaches would say that'll never help in wrestling it only confuse them or I never want one of my wrestlers to be comfortable on his back.
However I wouldn't spend the same amount of time in Judo,jujitsu, Greco-Roman or Freestyle Wrestling if my primary focus was folkstyle national championship.
The sad reality is if you're an elite athlete and you aspire to be Olympic medalist you will have to either forgo higher education or settle for maybe a second-rate education. not to mention the time you will have to spend time away from your family and friends because you won't have adequate training facilities close by the majority of the time.
And what about the family,do you think an athletes dad and mom are totally happy that their son has to spend so much time away from home? not to mention the cost associated for training for the family!
Its a messed up system and I just believe it's the wrong thing to do to athletes themselves and their families.
So when people say, well this wrestler actually did it , the big question is but at what cost and do they deserve better and when will the wrestling Community give them better?
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on August 31, 2016
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Lou -- I hear you man. Understand and can appreciate the points you're making. I guess I don't have quite same feeling about time away by the athletes trying to attain their goals. This time away is true of every Olympic sport that I know of. My cousin made the 2012 Olympic Curling Team. She spent a considerable time away from her family. It's just "part of the deal". I leave that stuff up to each family to handle.
With the funding / sponsors that are available to current athletes, the ability to train "like a pro" has gotten light years better than it was at any time in wrestling's history.
I like folkstyle and wouldn't want it to change (we struggle getting good wrestling ref's at matches as it is -- imagine trying to get three for EACH MAT -- major ugh!!) but changes could be made to make it more freestyle friendly. Not a perfect solution for what guys on your side of the argument would want, but closer.
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Lou Demas added to this discussion on September 1, 2016
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Brady,
If your cousin live in a State that had a different version of curling that made it more difficult to make an Olympic team. So she had to spend more time away from home and her parents had to not only bear a larger finacial burden but also emtional burden than other players only because the states curling fans enjoyed a the versiom they grew up with more than the other 49 states. Would you say that's a fair system ?
Pennsylvania wrestlers on average garner more NCAA All American awards than any other state. So you analyze why you think that is so and copy that. I would say pa. Wrestlers exel at there top and bottom . So I would willing sacrifice time and money to increase my child or wrestlers chances of becoming a NCAA Champion by sending them to camps and clinics that focus on top and bottom wrestling. Now what if the state I lived only used freestyle and Greco rules , would anyone argue they are in the fairest environment to achieve a NCAA title. And to add insult to injury the kids who are in the freestyle / Greco only state will have a harder time getting a scholaship in the folkstyle only States and it will be harder for them to get a quality education.In that system a parent or coach would be forced to go farther and spend more money and have their athlete or child away from them for much more time, to level the playing field.
There are very few freestyle camps and even fewer Greco camps. even when a camp advertises,we have two Olympians at this camp, their main focus is folkstyle.
So Brady,I understand when wrestling fans state they preferred folkstyle and don't want anything to change and that an NCAA title far supeceds an Olympic title. I can't argue that, anymore than I can argue that vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate but does folkstyle hurt us and the wrestlers in succeeding in the Olympic styles, that I can argue till I'm blue in the face.
We both agree on what's most important in life and we can only hope that a wrestler who set his goal on World and Olympic Titles learns that for himself in all the trials and tribulations on his journey!
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Discussion Topic: Olympic Thoughts
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on September 1, 2016
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Paying for results would help our success rate as well.
I think there is a little apples/oranges here as every analogy breaks down at some point. I think we would agree on mote if we were talking face to face but, alas, we are not.
Love the discussion. Best of luck to Dom this upcoming season and hopefully we run into each other this year.
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