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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Shawn Andrews added to this discussion on September 22, 2016
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This is not a recruiting thread so don't read into my question. Nor is it debating what is best for individual kids. My question is the recent trend of moving schools within a HS career good for wrestling within the state of Ohio?
So in response
Good for wrestling in ohio and why,
damaging for wrestling in ohio and why, or
No impact on the state of wrestling and why.
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 22, 2016
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You can never develop a team if good kids keep leaving.
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on September 22, 2016
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i'm curious, who are the major moves since school just started?
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Pat Altvater added to this discussion on September 22, 2016
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Quote from Shawn Andrews's post:
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" My question is the recent trend of moving schools within a HS career good for wrestling within the state of Ohio?
So in response
Good for wrestling in ohio and why,
damaging for wrestling in ohio and why, or
No impact on the state of wrestling and why."
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It depends on the particular wrestler and his reasons of 'whether it is good for the wrestler'.
Kyle Snyder left his high school after his junior year, went to the Olympic Training Center in Colorado for his senior year, and followed that up with NCAA runner-up his freshman year, international champ at 96 kg, heavy champ his senior year, and then an olympic championship. - But he's one in a hundred-million.
As for his school and the State of Maryland, they lost a great athlete and a shining example of all that good and right in the sport of wrestling.
I have seen this changing of teams in high school football for 15 years, and I never liked it. It can be devastating to the programs that are losing these athletes. So, I think it is detrimental to many teams, and the 'State' in general.
Now, would some individuals benefit by changing schools, most definitely, in some situations.
In high school football, Gorman Las Vegas and IMG Academy in Florida are two examples of 'football factories' that recruit nationally and produce two of the best national high school football teams. OSU has recruited boys from both of these schools for football. - The kids get top notch coaching and great exposure for recruiting. - It's probably not much different from the one wrestling school in New Jersey that recruits top national wrestlers and has one of the best programs in the nation year in and year out.
It may be good for the 'elite wrestlers', but I think in the long run it is unfair and skews the balance of competition for the entire system.
There should be a separate 'ultra-class' for these schools who recruit and bring in outside help to win titles. The local schools that depend on local talent shouldn't be judged against that 'hired gun' mentality. That is not the essence of 'amatuer high-school wrestling'.
JUST MY OPINION!
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Jared Ball added to this discussion on September 23, 2016
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I do not believe that it is bad for the overall product of the sport, but I do believe that its bad for the growth of the sport. The individualistic nature of the sport requires athletes to seek out the best competition, the best drill partners, and the best coaching. Its difficult to provide all of that from youth up through high school in one district. Kids will go where others have gone before them and achieved success, so its not too far of a stretch for kids to end up leaving their home district if their goals are centered around the highest level of our sport.
From a coaching perspective it guts your program. You almost have to continually recruit your own kids to stay around as young as jr high. Now I'm sure there are those that would say "get better to keep those kids", but not every program has the finances, facilities, and payroll for coaches to provide like some of the elite level schools.
I do believe that as kids transfer and move on to bigger and better things it does improve the overall quality of wrestling in our state. It brings national attention, and allows our kids to get exposure that they typically would not get. Its a difficult tug of war.
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Shawn Andrews added to this discussion on September 23, 2016
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My thoughts are as follows, if we have 3-5 super teams in the State by division does it create a divide with the rest of the teams? Do you have kids who don't feel like they compete so they don't come out? Is it a reason for decrease in overall state participation?
My opinion is that the talent gap on an individual level is widening between the top end wrestler and the rest of the field. Is the same thing happening on a team level? Is the movement of elite level kids to "super teams" going to have a negative impact on "everyone else".
Is this new or has this been happening for years? Did the state's recent stance on transfers make it something we will see more of going forward.
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on September 23, 2016
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Quote from Shawn Andrews's post:
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"Is this new or has this been happening for years? Did the state's recent stance on transfers make it something we will see more of going forward."
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Shawn, what is states recent stance on transfers??
who have been the high profile transfers this current school year?
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Brian Nicola added to this discussion on September 23, 2016
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I've been on both ends of it, but I've never coached a "super team". My experience is that kids want to be part of something special...they want the work THEY put in to match their teammates dedication, even their perception of their coach's dedication/knowledge.
I think, in a nutshell, it hurts our state. Less parity, IMO, almost always leads to a collective slumping of the shoulders. When was the last time we even realistically discussed another potential state champ in D2? A decade? Like stated above, the removal of the best kid from a program can absolutely gut it. It isn't just the points...it's the culture they bring to the program.
That said, this is America. Do what you've got to do. I've never held a grudge over a kid that leaves, and I've always tried to encourage kids that show up to keep the lines open with their previous squad. I had a freshman placer 7-8 years ago that transferred his sophomore year. I hadn't figured out what made him tick yet, so I'll take some of the responsibility. There was a palpable difference in the practice with him in or out of the room.
He was back as a junior, sat a year and finished runner-up as a senior. I became very close with him upon his return and talk with him regularly, which is a result of not taking anything too personal. He led the team as a captain (which was not in his personality) and openly appreciated the tone of the team, which was in contrast to the elite program where he spent his sophomore year.
tl:dr --> hodge-podge teams might raise the level of the athlete, but the team aspect MAY be lost, resulting in kids missing out on some of the GOODS of high school athletics.
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Luke Moore added to this discussion on September 23, 2016
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The "grass is always greener" mindset is terrible. It bothers me that parents and athletes don't realize what working toward beating a more superior team, rather than joining them, can do for a team and individual. I have had a few kids leave my program that if they would have stayed would have made the entire team better, but the opposite happened and we struggled. Its very frustrating as a coach to put a lot of effort and passion into a kid and see him leave to find something "better".
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Dan Harris added to this discussion on September 23, 2016
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Bob - with Ohio's latest transfer rules, the typical maximum penalty for transferring went from sitting out a season to sitting out half of a season.
Transfers have been around for a long time but required a pretty significant commitment. If you didn't want to sit out a year, you had to move or transfer before 9th grade.
With the new rules, I think we're starting to see small groups of high-level wrestlers that work out together in the off season decide between themselves to attend a single school together. This can almost instantly create a high performing team, which can just as instantly go back to what it was when the kids leave or graduate (or maybe not it the team gets some traction). When you compare that to the programs that historically get a lot of transfers and are continually good, I think it may be a good thing. That's just my observation.
On a side note, while at Fargo this year I visited the Roger Maris museum. Maris transferred high schools in Fargo in the '50's to play football. They didn't like it back then either.
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on September 23, 2016
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Quote from Dan Harris's post:
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"On a side note, while at Fargo this year I visited the Roger Maris museum. Maris transferred high schools in Fargo in the '50's to play football. They didn't like it back then either."
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thanks Dan
ive also been to Roger Maris museum in Fargo--in W Acres Mall? and to his gravesite there, tombstone black granite diamond enscribed "61 in '61"
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on September 23, 2016
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It would seem to me that if we are who we say we are, we should be totally fine with kids and families making the decision to move/switch school districts. It's an individual sport that teaches the virtues of personal responsibility, rugged individualism and work ethic. If you think you'd be better served somewhere else, then who am I (or anyone else) to say you shouldn't? Does it hurt the sport? Maybe. Is that your responsibility? Nope.
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 24, 2016
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The problem to my way of thinking is not with the wrestlers who want to make a switch to another program. It's with the rampant recruiting that goes on at the youth level. If you have a talented kid in your little public program--and he shows it--he will attract the attention of the nearby privates and/or powerhouse publics who know how to attract a kid and can often provide knowledge of how to make a transfer legally. I don't want to go into details but we all know it goes on. It's tricky to build a strong public in your community if your best youth kids are quietly being wooed by other schools. It's gone on forever and it's always bad. Now, it's worse than ever because the difference between top and bottom is so vast.
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Dan Strope added to this discussion on September 24, 2016
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The topic of transferring is always brought up. It has been argued pro and con forever. I personally think it is slowly killing the sport because fewer and fewer schools are fostering strong traditions because of the consolidation of the talent. Success has a snowball effect on a program but somebody has got to be the first local success and others need to sustain it. Having said that, I certainly wouldn't blame a kid for transferring if that is in his or his family's best interest.
Most of the time transferring is just putting a Band Aid on the real issue and that is lazy or poor coaching. The real issue is that the kids are usually searching for something that their local coaches have failed to provide. Workout partners? Why haven't you developed compenent workout partners for your stud? Better scheduling? Why isn't your program providing a challenging schedule? Better technique? When was the last time you and your staff attended a summer coaching clinic, rules clinic or purchased the newest instructional tapes? Do you have a hand in your youth and middle school development or do you encourage your kids to go to "club (fill in the blank)" or "so and so open mats" then wonder why the kid has bonded with other team's kids and coaches more than you? Do you give year end evaluations and stress the importance of improving in the offseason but then just kick it back until next November because you want to spend more time with your family?
I used to think that the increase in transfers would eventually force coaches to become better coaches and therefore strengthen the sport. You know the whole "keeping up with the Jones" type thing but the truth of the matter is that it seems like just the opposite. It seems like fewer and fewer high school coaches actually attend any of the freestyle/greco qualifiers or their state championship in the spring. "Club" junior high program numbers seem to be on the rise as local junior high programs seem to have more of a "recreational" culture as opposed to a developmental tone. I see more and more coaches that are actually happy to "hand off" their kids to offseason clubs because "they need a break". And the most disturbing trend is that any news of a transfer almost always produces a reply of "I thought we had a chance of him coming here".
Coaches really need to be reminded that it is OK, you are allowed to actually coach.
Hank you are dead on!
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Discussion Topic: Is movement of HS kids from one team to another team good for HS wrestling
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on September 24, 2016
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So in response...
1) Good for wrestling in ohio and why,
2) Damaging for wrestling in ohio and why, or
3) No impact on the state of wrestling and why.
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Shawn, I lean towards point #3 due to the fact that it has been happening for as far back as I can remember and here we are in 2016...still plugging along.
As some have stated, what can I say if someone chooses to transfer? It's their choice. I certainly recognize the reality of the situation. But consider me lost in the ideal but I long for the days when parents buy into the idea of community and stress the idea that student-athletes - no matter the venue of competition - are ambassadors for their school and community, and both parties accept that mantle of responsibility proudly.
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