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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on February 19, 2017

Agree that Zain looked invincible a year ago. Now, he looks merely excellent. Nolf and Nickal are both more impressive at this moment.



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
William Danforth added to this discussion on February 19, 2017

Full match on Oklahoma State's Youtube channel. Way better than Flo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t88C06m4XU

Well now it isn't available. Flo must have thrown a hissy fit.



Last edited by William Danforth on February 20, 2017; edited 1 time in total

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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Jack Muni added to this discussion on February 20, 2017

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Agree that Zain looked invincible a year ago. Now, he looks merely excellent. Nolf and Nickal are both more impressive at this moment."


I don't know if it was because they were in Okla but Retherford got called for stalling when he threw the boots in and just hung on to Collica. Collica came to his feet multiple times with ZR draped all over him. Seems like they usually call stalemate on something like that??? Sorenson got beat in OT over the weekend too.



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Ben Watson added to this discussion on February 20, 2017

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Agree that Zain looked invincible a year ago. Now, he looks merely excellent. Nolf and Nickal are both more impressive at this moment."



Interesting point Hank. I agree with you. Zain has looked more human as of late, albeit against very stellar competition. I still think he wins the title, but he may be pushed more than last year.

To me, Nolf, Nickal, Dean, and Gilman have been the most dominant wrestlers in the NCAA this year. Statistics may not bare this out. But, the eyeball test does.



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on February 20, 2017

Quote from Jack Muni's post:

"

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Agree that Zain looked invincible a year ago. Now, he looks merely excellent. Nolf and Nickal are both more impressive at this moment."


I don't know if it was because they were in Okla but Retherford got called for stalling when he threw the boots in and just hung on to Collica. Collica came to his feet multiple times with ZR draped all over him. Seems like they usually call stalemate on something like that??? Sorenson got beat in OT over the weekend too."



I know that things are "different" because of riding time but, IMO, this is not a stalemate situation at all. A stalemate is created when neither wrestler can improve their position without risk. A stall is called when one, or the other, can improve and does not do so. Locking yourself in position using the legs and making no attempt to turn the opponent is a stall (spelled ride) tactic. I could see calling a stalemate once. After that the offensive man has to go with another option.
I find it amazing that the NCAA is so worried about leaving the circle for a stall call or being below the waist (especially when the offensive man's arm is trapped and he can't move) but they continue to ignore this.
Just my $.02.



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Mike Stann added to this discussion on February 20, 2017

Quote from Ben Watson's post:

"

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Agree that Zain looked invincible a year ago. Now, he looks merely excellent. Nolf and Nickal are both more impressive at this moment."



Interesting point Hank. I agree with you. Zain has looked more human as of late, albeit against very stellar competition. I still think he wins the title, but he may be pushed more than last year.

To me, Nolf, Nickal, Dean, and Gilman have been the most dominant wrestlers in the NCAA this year. Statistics may not bare this out. But, the eyeball test does."



if you're using the eyeball test I can't see (he he) how you can leave out Mr. Snyder



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Mike Stann added to this discussion on February 20, 2017

Quote from Jim Behrens's post:

"

Quote from Jack Muni's post:

"

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Agree that Zain looked invincible a year ago. Now, he looks merely excellent. Nolf and Nickal are both more impressive at this moment."


I don't know if it was because they were in Okla but Retherford got called for stalling when he threw the boots in and just hung on to Collica. Collica came to his feet multiple times with ZR draped all over him. Seems like they usually call stalemate on something like that??? Sorenson got beat in OT over the weekend too."



I know that things are "different" because of riding time but, IMO, this is not a stalemate situation at all. A stalemate is created when neither wrestler can improve their position without risk. A stall is called when one, or the other, can improve and does not do so. Locking yourself in position using the legs and making no attempt to turn the opponent is a stall (spelled ride) tactic. I could see calling a stalemate once. After that the offensive man has to go with another option.
I find it amazing that the NCAA is so worried about leaving the circle for a stall call or being below the waist (especially when the offensive man's arm is trapped and he can't move) but they continue to ignore this.
Just my $.02."



Jim, I couldn't agree more. I can't understand calling stalling on the bottom when the guy is totally broken down and the fellow on top is riding parallel with no real attempt at turning.



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Ben Watson added to this discussion on February 20, 2017

Quote from Mike Stann's post:

"

Quote from Ben Watson's post:

"

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Agree that Zain looked invincible a year ago. Now, he looks merely excellent. Nolf and Nickal are both more impressive at this moment."



Interesting point Hank. I agree with you. Zain has looked more human as of late, albeit against very stellar competition. I still think he wins the title, but he may be pushed more than last year.

To me, Nolf, Nickal, Dean, and Gilman have been the most dominant wrestlers in the NCAA this year. Statistics may not bare this out. But, the eyeball test does."



if you're using the eyeball test I can't see (he he) how you can leave out Mr. Snyder"



I'm an idiot. Of course Snyder should be included. NATO too absent his first tournament back (that he still won).



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on February 20, 2017

Quote from Jim Behrens's post:

"

Quote from Jack Muni's post:

"

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Agree that Zain looked invincible a year ago. Now, he looks merely excellent. Nolf and Nickal are both more impressive at this moment."


I don't know if it was because they were in Okla but Retherford got called for stalling when he threw the boots in and just hung on to Collica. Collica came to his feet multiple times with ZR draped all over him. Seems like they usually call stalemate on something like that??? Sorenson got beat in OT over the weekend too."



I know that things are "different" because of riding time but, IMO, this is not a stalemate situation at all. A stalemate is created when neither wrestler can improve their position without risk. A stall is called when one, or the other, can improve and does not do so. Locking yourself in position using the legs and making no attempt to turn the opponent is a stall (spelled ride) tactic. I could see calling a stalemate once. After that the offensive man has to go with another option.
I find it amazing that the NCAA is so worried about leaving the circle for a stall call or being below the waist (especially when the offensive man's arm is trapped and he can't move) but they continue to ignore this.
Just my $.02."



Excellent points Jim.



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Matt Mace added to this discussion on February 20, 2017

I couldn't agree more on the points of stalling above. To add to this topic of stalling, the official in the Cornell/tOSU dual did not correctly call stalling on out of bounds situations. On several occasions wrestlers were pushing out or diving out of bounds to stop the action and the official kept signalling a continuation of action led to the out of bounds. I disagree. The push out rule has made freestyle more exciting and I think it would do the same for folkstyle.



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on February 20, 2017

Quote from Mike Stann's post:

"

Quote from Jim Behrens's post:

"

Quote from Jack Muni's post:

"

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Agree that Zain looked invincible a year ago. Now, he looks merely excellent. Nolf and Nickal are both more impressive at this moment."


I don't know if it was because they were in Okla but Retherford got called for stalling when he threw the boots in and just hung on to Collica. Collica came to his feet multiple times with ZR draped all over him. Seems like they usually call stalemate on something like that??? Sorenson got beat in OT over the weekend too."



I know that things are "different" because of riding time but, IMO, this is not a stalemate situation at all. A stalemate is created when neither wrestler can improve their position without risk. A stall is called when one, or the other, can improve and does not do so. Locking yourself in position using the legs and making no attempt to turn the opponent is a stall (spelled ride) tactic. I could see calling a stalemate once. After that the offensive man has to go with another option.
I find it amazing that the NCAA is so worried about leaving the circle for a stall call or being below the waist (especially when the offensive man's arm is trapped and he can't move) but they continue to ignore this.
Just my $.02."



Jim, I couldn't agree more. I can't understand calling stalling on the bottom when the guy is totally broken down and the fellow on top is riding parallel with no real attempt at turning."



I was thinking this exact thought while watching a match just last week. For the life of me, I don't remember who was in the match but it was the 285's.
The man on top was leading 2-1 as I recall and was laying there doing absolutely nothing. The defensive man had no chance to come up (I can't even begin to imagine how you would lift 280 pounds like that) and his head/neck was being forced down with an arm across the neck.
The official hit the defensive man!!
Now, I am an official but I can not see how this call makes any sense.
Trying explaining that call to someone new to the sport.
Sometimes I think we are our own worst enemy.



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Mike Stann added to this discussion on February 21, 2017

Quote from Matt Mace's post:

"I couldn't agree more on the points of stalling above. To add to this topic of stalling, the official in the Cornell/tOSU dual did not correctly call stalling on out of bounds situations. On several occasions wrestlers were pushing out or diving out of bounds to stop the action and the official kept signalling a continuation of action led to the out of bounds. I disagree. The push out rule has made freestyle more exciting and I think it would do the same for folkstyle."



Matt, these are exactly the reasons I as a fan (not ex wrestler) find freestyle a more exciting sport. I still feel there is a way to reward control (as an ex wrestler) and keep the action going. imo the folkstyle refs need to be as aggressive as the freestyle refs in calling stalling. It seems that in folkstyle the feeling is we don't want to decide a match let the wrestlers do it. But by not calling stalling early they do decide the match in favor of the guy who is trying to hold on at the end and when they do rarely make the call it does decide the match and since it's rarely called many feel ripped off.



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on February 21, 2017

While I will admit that I don't agree with everything Mike said in the previous post, some of it I do agree with.

I always think of the Rush song "Freewill" and the line in it which says:

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"

IOW, to not decide is to decide.

BTW, I am of the mind to go to the push out rule as well. You see a LOT less wrestling at the edge in FS and that is something I really like.



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on February 21, 2017

Quote from Jim Behrens's post:

"

Quote from Jack Muni's post:

"

Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:

"Agree that Zain looked invincible a year ago. Now, he looks merely excellent. Nolf and Nickal are both more impressive at this moment."


I don't know if it was because they were in Okla but Retherford got called for stalling when he threw the boots in and just hung on to Collica. Collica came to his feet multiple times with ZR draped all over him. Seems like they usually call stalemate on something like that??? Sorenson got beat in OT over the weekend too."



I know that things are "different" because of riding time but, IMO, this is not a stalemate situation at all. A stalemate is created when neither wrestler can improve their position without risk. A stall is called when one, or the other, can improve and does not do so. Locking yourself in position using the legs and making no attempt to turn the opponent is a stall (spelled ride) tactic. I could see calling a stalemate once. After that the offensive man has to go with another option.
I find it amazing that the NCAA is so worried about leaving the circle for a stall call or being below the waist (especially when the offensive man's arm is trapped and he can't move) but they continue to ignore this.
Just my $.02."

Jim,
Something I heard on the BTN during one of the duals they were broadcasting regarding this point was interesting and made me wonder if it were true. Regarding stalling on top being called w/ the boots in, they stated that when the boots are placed in and the bottom man stands up they will stalemate it the first time but then hit the bottom man for stalling for the 2nd and further times. The point they emphasized was the boots had to be in before the bottom man tried to stand up. Therefore, it was viewed as the bottom man was stalling as standing up w/ the boots in always results in stoppage and kills the top man's move w/ the boots in. Thoughts?



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Discussion Topic: Penn st v Oklahoma State
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on February 21, 2017

Mike,

I did not hear that and I am certainly no expert on NCAA rules but I can imagine that is how they want it called.

The big difference from HS rules is that when the defensive wrestler is supporting all the offensive wrestler's weight (IOW the offensive man has no foot on the mat) we call it PD and reset the wrestlers where they were. If it happens maybe a second time and certainly a third time, it is stalling. In NCAA competition they do not stop the match, by rule, but they might stalemate it.
My first year of doing college stuff I was lucky that this happened to my mat partner as I would have blown the whistle and had a coach up my butt shortly thereafter.

What we have to look at is, were the legs in prior to the stand up OR did the offensive man throw them in during the stand up. BTW, for us it doesn't matter if it one or both legs in, as long as they are off the mat.

For us in HS, the way we are to view it is that it is stalling if the same man uses the same move and it stops the match.

I did a finals match at Top Gun a few years ago between Tomasello and Langdon (from Claymont). Three times Tomasello came up from the bottom and Langdon threw a leg in. PD two times and the third time it was a stalling call. Secretly I was hoping I counted correctly! Now in this case had the leg(s) been in before the stand up, the call would have gone against Tomasello.

Hopefully all of that makes sense.



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