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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
Jack Muni added to this discussion on March 22, 2017

Now I can't decide what I dislike more, PSU fans yelling "We Are..." or Iowa fans yelling "Stalling! He's Stalling Ref!!".



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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 22, 2017

Quote from Jack Muni's post:

"Now I can't decide what I dislike more, PSU fans yelling "We Are..." or Iowa fans yelling "Stalling! He's Stalling Ref!!"."



Easy choice for me.
While both are annoying, as an official the second one is so juvenile (and old) that I can do without hearing it again.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
Steve Lester added to this discussion on March 23, 2017

Speaking of crowd chants:

When I was in high school and college back in the day, when you turned a guy over to their back the (home) crowd would begin to roar "PIN...PIN...PIN...PIN...."

I would join in with great enthusiasm.

When did that practice stop?



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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
John Herren added to this discussion on March 23, 2017

Did people say the same thing about Iowa 25-30 years ago? Not trying to be smart. Just wondering?

Looking back was that bad for wrestling?



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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 23, 2017

https://bwi.rivals.com/news/column-a-brotherhood-has-built-psu-wrestling-into-a-powerhouse

Casey Cunningham won Mark Hall a National Championship,

"With a spot in the championship round on the line – one that Hall eventually won – Hall surrendered a third-period takedown and seemed to be on the brink of falling to the consolations. But as he was taken to the mat, something didn’t look right to Cunningham. Upon instinct and with swiftness, the assistant coach acted.
As Valencia brought Hall down, Cunningham saw the chinstrap of Hall’s headgear slide up around his nose, an indication of a technical violation that the referee didn’t originally penalize, or see. Without hesitation, Cunningham leapt to his feet and then to the scorers’ table to wave (both) challenge flags, arguing that Valencia had illegally, even if incidentally, grabbed Hall’s equipment."

That is some high level technical corner coaching. Compare that to the Ian Miller debacle and #coaching matters



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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
Ben Golden added to this discussion on March 23, 2017

Unfortunately, Rex, Kent State's coaches did question the scoring during Ian's match and they were shushed away. Not their fault at all.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
Brandon Olinger added to this discussion on March 23, 2017

"About the whole 'just have fun' thing. That wore me out a little. I love the premise, I preach it to my children: we play sports for fun! But winning is fun! I want one time to see a PSU wrestler lose, walk off the mat and say "Man I just had fun." Once that happens, I'll believe."



Ethan, while I understand the point you are making, I think people are taking the "just have fun" thing out of context. To me, I don't think they are speaking about individual matches. I believe they are talking about the process. Are they saying losing a match is fun? No. But the process is fun to that team. The training, competing, practicing, winning, learning, getting better, etc. They have fun, wrestle a fun style, and it's paying off.

How many times during Iowa's legendary run did it seem that they were robots, not enjoying what they were doing? How many stories have we heard about Iowa guys snapping at the pressure to win?

So while I would never expect a PSU wrestler to walk off the mat after losing a match and say it was fun, I bet they would still say the process is fun, and embody an attitude of "you either win or learn".

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on March 23, 2017

Quote from John Herren's post:

"Did people say the same thing about Iowa 25-30 years ago? Not trying to be smart. Just wondering?

Looking back was that bad for wrestling?"



No inter-web thingy back then...:) But winners can always expect criticism/envy from losers, expressed in many different fashions.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
Dan Strope added to this discussion on March 23, 2017

[quote="Rex Holman"]https://bwi.rivals.com/news/column-a-brotherhood-has-built-psu-wrestling-into-a-powerhouse

Casey Cunningham won Mark Hall a National Championship,

"With a spot in the championship round on the line – one that Hall eventually won – Hall surrendered a third-period takedown and seemed to be on the brink of falling to the consolations. But as he was taken to the mat, something didn’t look right to Cunningham. Upon instinct and with swiftness, the assistant coach acted.
As Valencia brought Hall down, Cunningham saw the chinstrap of Hall’s headgear slide up around his nose, an indication of a technical violation that the referee didn’t originally penalize, or see. Without hesitation, Cunningham leapt to his feet and then to the scorers’ table to wave (both) challenge flags, arguing that Valencia had illegally, even if incidentally, grabbed Hall’s equipment."

That is some high level technical corner coaching. Compare that to the Ian Miller debacle and #coaching matters[/quote

Interestingly enough the guys on FRL said that another high level coach told them that he was also prepared to challenge Valencia on the same type of thing. This unnamed coach had claimed Valencia had been getting away with this type of thing all year. I believe it is on podcast FRL 188 during their recap of the 174 weight class.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
Dan Strope added to this discussion on March 23, 2017

Quote from Ben Golden's post:

"Unfortunately, Rex, Kent State's coaches did question the scoring during Ian's match and they were shushed away. Not their fault at all."



But they did leave the wrestling area and then tried to file an appeal. Once you leave the wrestling area you basically forfeit your right to appeal and I believe that was the main issue. Inexcusable because a college coach should have known better.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 23, 2017

Dan-
Yes, talked to Ferd today to make sure my facts were straight. You are correct. The appeal or flag needs to be raised during the action or before leaving the mat. No flag was waved or protest at the right time. Thanks for adding that.

Interesting tidbit on FRL catching that and knowing that one move does a championship make.

Casey acted with conviction and knew what was happening in order to make that call. That means he watched a lot of video and did what a coach is supposed to do. I think that is one of those coaching moments that you can secretly call yourself a genius.

Bo got hosed. I made the point on FB group to say that he made a mistake by not wrestling on the edge when Hall was able to reverse the situation. It is still my contention that wrestling or having a let up on the edge costs people championships every year.

He had the takedown. Tom Ryan raised the flag and Penn State got the call. Been reading up on systems thinking for a class I am taking. It has a huge bearing on understanding what is going on in wrestling and all the dynamics that interplay ending in a result.

Ferd made a great point which I did not consider. One with regard to Ian in his match with Imar, but carries over to the Bo match. Per the rules and watching a replay, he met criteria for a score with that last inside trip. It was a flash takedown(no control but meets criteria). The ref didn't score it either.

I don't know that referees are equipped to make that call and only video review can provide evidence.

Regarding Ian, I like this opinion

http://www.levelchanger.com/blog/2015/07/28/lose-track-of-the-score-at-your-wrestlers-peril-a-harsh-lesson-for-kent-state-and-ian-miller



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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
Josh Lowe added to this discussion on March 23, 2017

The Kent State coaches did NOT challenge the Miller "takedown" at the end of regulation against Martinez in last year's semifinal. I tweeted at the time that they should have because it was close, and there was absolutely no consequence for losing the challenge with clear & obvious benefit from winning it.

Of course this is the same coaching staff that the year before failed to pay attention and/or follow proper protocol in defending the same wrestler (Ian Miller) from a scoring error.



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Discussion Topic: Penn State - I'm over it
Justin Hayes added to this discussion on March 24, 2017

I'm not over it.

I'm not rooting for PSU over tOSU, however, like any type of competitive situation, adapt if you want to increase your opportunity to come out on top.

PSU is in the front and they are driving. IMHO if the Iowa type programs don't adapt, they will continue to be consistently good based on their philosophy of wrestling, but they won't come out on top in the manner and custom they are historically accustomed to.

In their defense, when the PSU wrestlers say "fun" what they probably mean is "The process, culture, camaraderie, and success of being on the PSU Wrestling Team is fun; I enjoy wrestling immensely." I've never gotten that same general impression from the Hawkeyes...



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