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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Mike Holman added to this discussion on July 6, 2018
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Strongly disagree with Mike Holman's letter. I have talked to enough people to know that they were molested. Some of them read this forum.
As to what Jordan and Hellickson did or didn't know....or do....we'll find out."
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That is the problem Hank. The loose use of terms when reputations are at stake. What is "molested"? I did not use the term "molested." If I had done so, I would have looked up the definition and tied it to the know facts and been specific. If you have examples of molestation then state them. Do not hide behind ambiguity.
What serious sex crime were committed? Who did Strauss "sexually abuse"? Who thought what Strauss did was serious enough to report it to law enforcement.
I have heard and seen allegations of what Strauss did. At most his conduct would be "sexual imposition" a misdemeanor.
Everything I said is accurate. If you take issue with any part of what I wrote, have the integrity to be specific.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Brandon Gambucci added to this discussion on July 6, 2018
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“Dunyasha comes back and tells Jimmy, ‘Seriously, why do I have to pull down my pants for a thumb injury?’†Dailey said. “Jimmy said something to the extent of, ‘If he tried that with me, I would kill him.'â€
“I participated with Jimmy and the other wrestlers in locker-room talk about Strauss. We all did,†Dailey told NBC, referring to Jordan. “It was very common knowledge in the locker room that if you went to Dr. Strauss for anything, you would have to pull your pants down.â€
“There’s no way unless he’s got dementia or something that he’s got no recollection of what was going on at Ohio State,†Mark Coleman, former Ohio State wrestler and UFC world champion, told the Wall Street Journal. “I have nothing but respect for this man, I love this man, but he knew as far as I’m concerned.â€
Not sure why we, as a community, are jumping to try and protect Jim J. It's one thing to wait for more facts to come out, but are we trying to say that all 5 wrestlers are lying about this? I'm doing my best to not give a strong opinion on this matter, but the very least we could do is not jump right to victim blaming, IMO. If true, this is serial sexual abuse on kids 18-22 years old.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on July 6, 2018
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“Not sure why we, as a community, are jumping to try and protect Jim J.†- BG
I’m not sure if everyone is. Certainly not on the forums I’ve read.
“It's one thing to wait for more facts to come out, but are we trying to say that all 5 wrestlers are lying about this?†- BG
I think what we are doing - at least in this thread - is determining what “this†is. Is it a pervert who got his jollies by looking at young men, sexual harassment, gross sexual imposition, or sexual abuse as the terms were defined circa 1990.
“I'm doing my best to not give a strong opinion on this matter, but the very least we could do is not jump right to victim blaming, IMO.†- BG
I was accused of victim blaming in this situation by saying what I said above. I’m not sure how that is victim blaming but according to the individual, I was giving a textbook definition of it. Color me confused.
“If true, this is serial sexual abuse on kids 18-22 years old.†- BG
Again, I think this is Mr M. Holman’s point - is it abuse to gaze upon a man or watch him shower? I’ll give you creepy and even weird AF! But technically I don’t think we can say abuse. Additionally, and this is where it gets crazy, this doc displayed these characteristics AND THEN - per his position/title/job - HAD TO touch. It’s almost like the perfect alibi for the guy. Lastly, 18-22 are no longer kids. BUT! I get your point.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Brandon Gambucci added to this discussion on July 6, 2018
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Certainly not everyone, for sure. Less about this thread specifically, and more my own personal observations from the greater wrestling ecosystem. Perhaps it's my own biases that make me "notice" these things more.
As far as the victim blaming goes, I was mostly referring to this quote, "The one thing I have real trouble understanding is if that they go in for a hand injury and he supposedly asks them to pull their pants down, they don’t walk out? They don’t bring their claims then if they were assaulted and bring it to light to potentially protect others? At some point you are an adult and expected to act like one. College is a good place to start." Which is, IMO, textbook victim blaming. I've seen similarly expressed opinions on the twittersphere and elsewhere.
I will say though, asking a college aged individual (as his doctor) to pull down their pants when talking about a thumb injury, that sounds an awful lot like sexual abuse. One doesn't need to full-on rape someone for it to be considered sexual abuse. Shawn Dailey is on record saying he needed to go to therapy to deal with the effects of what happened.
Anyways, I know 18-22 year-olds aren't "kids", but, you got me. I still consider myself a kid at age 26 most of the time.
Hopefully this does get cleared up and whether or not Jim J knew about this comes to light. Obviously, if he did, it is extraordinarily unacceptable. I love my wrestling community, it has just been a little frustrating to see folks jump to Jim J's defense and saying this is a money grab or a hit job. Obviously not aimed at any individual in particular.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 6, 2018
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Quote from Brandon Gambucci's post:
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" I love my wrestling community, it has just been a little frustrating to see folks jump to Jim J's defense and saying this is a money grab or a hit job. "
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these accounts may or may not be true or partially true --though suspicious it rises up now 20 to 40 years after the incidents -- i don't know the truth. After 20 to 40 years maybe no one really knows the truth unless written documents can be produced.
but no doubt its to a large extent a money grab influenced by the power of the MeTooMovement and the $500 million dollars Michigan St has set aside to settle claims. No doubt, its human nature. ....And no doubt the politics involved in smearing Jordan, CNN loves this stuff.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Brandon Gambucci added to this discussion on July 6, 2018
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"
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Quote from Brandon Gambucci's post:
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" I love my wrestling community, it has just been a little frustrating to see folks jump to Jim J's defense and saying this is a money grab or a hit job. "
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these accounts may or may not be true or partially true --though suspicious it rises up now 20 to 40 years after the incidents -- i don't know the truth. After 20 to 40 years maybe no one really knows the truth unless written documents can be produced.
but no doubt its to a large extent a money grab influenced by the power of the MeTooMovement and the $500 million dollars Michigan St has set aside to settle claims. No doubt, its human nature. ....And no doubt the politics involved in smearing Jordan, CNN loves this stuff."
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Oy, this is exactly what I mean though!
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 6, 2018
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ok Brandon i hear you but i'm not accusing or defending anyone. I'll let it play out.
however its also frustrating to me to see some deny its a money grab when common sense tells me to a large extent it is, like alot of stuff u see in the news daily. "I'm a victim, pay me" is a common theme in America today.
oh well, so we both are frustrated, LOL.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Roe Fox added to this discussion on July 6, 2018
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“As far as the victim blaming goes, I was mostly referring to this quote, "The one thing I have real trouble understanding is if that they go in for a hand injury and he supposedly asks them to pull their pants down, they don’t walk out? They don’t bring their claims then if they were assaulted and bring it to light to potentially protect others? At some point you are an adult and expected to act like one. College is a good place to start." Which is, IMO, textbook victim blaming. I've seen similarly expressed opinions on the twittersphere and elsewhere. â€
And this is why I don’t believe you understand the point some people see trying to make. This is not Nassau and Sandusky yet. That conduct, including the insertion of fingers, under Ohio law is rape, particularly due to the age of the victims. So far, there appear to be allegations of highly inappropriate and bizarre conduct against adults, not children. That they happen to involve sexuality does not make it sexual assault. That I think is Mike’s H’s point.
To Hank’s point (I think) there doesn’t have to be rape to have unwanted sexual contact, which he loosely terms molestation. I don’t care about the criminal degree of offense: if illegal and unwanted then there is a victim.
But when some bizarre individual asks you as an adult to do something you don’t want to do and you do it, that doesn’t necessarily make you a victim. You have choice, unlike most children.
This of course doesn’t apply to things like sexual harassment in the workplace, a whole other can of worms.
As to Jordan, why so quick to jump on the “he’s a liar†bandwagon when the main accusers have PROVABLE troubling pasts and the congressman does not? He may not be telling the truth but why not give him the benefit of the doubt without more?
Not everything is #metoo and to make it so devalues the victims of that movement.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Mike Stann added to this discussion on July 6, 2018
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To those that seem to think that what the dr did is somehow less reprehensible than what he could of done I just would ask you what your reaction would be if your son who you thought was in good hands tells you the dr masturbated in the shower in front of him and/or touched your son's genitalia? this is what is being alleged but if proven, those guilty of allowing it to happen should be held accountable no matter who they are.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Steve Lester added to this discussion on July 6, 2018
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Quote from Mike Stann's post:
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"To those that seem to think that what the dr did is somehow less reprehensible than what he could of done I just would ask you what your reaction would be if your son who you thought was in good hands tells you the dr masturbated in the shower in front of him and/or touched your son's genitalia? this is what is being alleged but if proven, those guilty of allowing it to happen should be held accountable no matter who they are."
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Which brings to mind something I was thinking about. If I was the dad in such a situation I would be making a TON of noise--by writing, by voice, and by personal appearance. Did any parents of the however many victims make a complaint that we know about?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Reed Vetovitz added to this discussion on July 6, 2018
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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"But when some bizarre individual asks you as an adult to do something you don’t want to do and you do it, that doesn’t necessarily make you a victim. You have choice, unlike most children.
This of course doesn’t apply to things like sexual harassment in the workplace, a whole other can of worms.
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If the scenario you describe in the first sentence above was sexual and occurred in the workplace between a supervisor and staff, would it not be sexual harassment? Why wouldn't such a scenario between a team doctor and student athlete be sexual harassment? The student athlete wouldn't necessarily be a victim?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Roe Fox added to this discussion on July 7, 2018
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Quote from Reed Vetovitz's post:
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"
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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"But when some bizarre individual asks you as an adult to do something you don’t want to do and you do it, that doesn’t necessarily make you a victim. You have choice, unlike most children.
This of course doesn’t apply to things like sexual harassment in the workplace, a whole other can of worms.
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If the scenario you describe in the first sentence above was sexual and occurred in the workplace between a supervisor and staff, would it not be sexual harassment? Why wouldn't such a scenario between a team doctor and student athlete be sexual harassment? The student athlete wouldn't necessarily be a victim?"
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Likely and, in my opinion, maybe not. There could be Title 9 issues, too. But the legal vs. the practical applications are what a lot of the difference of opinions seem to be here. Much like who is a “victim†and who isn’t.
Am I a “victim†because I have a right to sue someone for their crass behavior in a workplace? Some might say yes, some no. Doesn’t it also depend on the activity? If a woman gets groped by a supervisor is she a victim? I think so. Does she have a right to sue? Of course. If some alleges sexual harassment because of rude jokes in the workplace is that person a victim? Or do they just have a right to sue? The civil area gives people the right to correct wrongs that aren’t criminal.
Am I a “victim†because I’m 12 and Nassar or Sandusky put some part of their body in mine? Everyone here would agree. Like if Strauss fondled someone’s genitalia against their will, like Nick Nutter has recently come out as saying happened. In my opinion that would be a victim of a sexual assault.
Also, don’t confuse any comments I make as minimizing Strauss’ possible activity. By all accounts he was a weird if not criminal dude. But I do believe it appropriate to inquire further — not disclaim — about (1) 20 plus year old allegations (2) against a guy who died 12 years ago (3) by some (not referring to Nutter) people with provable poor pasts (4) that supposedly occurred when they were adults (5) on the heels of massive payouts to VICTIMS at the hands of Nassar and Sandusky.
Thanks to DNA a fair amount of people are properly getting out of prison for convictions based on better evidence than I am CURRENTLY AWARE is involved here.
I hope that’s clear on my position because I can’t and won’t do more.
To Steve’s point, I agree. If it happened to our daughter (currently at TOSU, by the way) we absolutely would at least find out what was going on, if not likely more.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Mike Holman added to this discussion on July 7, 2018
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CHALLENGE TO EVERYONE
Show me where it is reported that a single person complained to Jim Jordan that they were sexually abused, fondled, or groped.
I have read everything I could.
Where does it say Mike DiSabato complained to Jim Jordan, Russ Hellickson, or Mark Coleman about being sexually abused, fondled, or groped?
Mark Coleman has complained he was touched inappropriately. Where does it say Mark Coleman complained to Jim Jordan about being touched inappropriately? After being touched inappropriately, what did Assistant Coach Coleman and later MMA World Heavyweight Champion do to protect his wrestlers from being touched inappropriately?
Shawn Daily said he was groped repeatedly. Where does it say Shawn Daily complained to Jim Jordan about being groped repeatedly?
Where does it say Nick Nutter complained to Jim Jordan, Russ Hellickson, or Mark Coleman about being sexually abused, fondled, or groped?
We are seeing a vicious character assassination of Jim Jordan. People are loosely using terms and making unsubstantiated claims about Jim Jordan.
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Last edited by Mike Holman on July 7, 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Brandon Gambucci added to this discussion on July 7, 2018
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State - Dr Richard Strauss
Mike Holman added to this discussion on July 7, 2018
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That in not reporting sexual abuse, fondling, or groping.
That is the problem. People conflating inappropriate conduct with sexual abuse, fondling, or groping.
Do not aid and abet a vicious character assassination.
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