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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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To steal a line from the Beastie Boys - I'm frustrated with the new style of wrestling.
With the emergence of scrambling, I see many top level wrestlers who almost refuse to attack. Their entire strategy is to wait until their opponent takes a risk and then use superior scrambling to score.
Some examples from this weekend that frustrated me:
1. Myles vs. Dean - Dean did nothing. It was clear the strategy was to create scrambles off of Martin's risks. Yet, at no point was Dean held accountable for being defensive.
2. Yianni vs. the field - YD just waited to create scrambles. In addition, after Joey pushed the action for 6 minutes, the stall call in the 3rd put him into panic mode and forced an unnecessary shot.
3. Cassar vs. Steveson - Cassar did nothing. Scored off an attack from Gable. Wins the match.
4. Nickal - does Bo shoot? He is absolutely lethal when you touch his legs. Again, his strategy is to get you to shoot then look for the near side.
I don't know if it's new. Perhaps it's similar to the 80s Iowa teams who pressured forward to force bad shots. However, I find it frustrating when one wrestler takes all the offensive attempts.
Having said that, it's clear to me the programs who innovate and practice scrambling techniques. Cornell has to be the gold standard. Ohio State is lacking in this area - something that needs attention as this style of wrestling becomes more pervasive.
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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I guess the question is, what do you propose to solve the "problem"?
Do you want some sort of rules changes? Remember the laws of unintended consequences because something will likely happen that no one foresaw. Think of hands to the face.
I will say that the "danger" call seems to have helped overall. I don't see guys laying motionless holding an ankle like just a few years ago.
Do you want more involvement by officials? I would guess not but maybe I am wrong.
What would make it "better"?
As an official, I am not a fan of this type of wrestling either but I think it is important to remember that it happens only at the very, very highest level. I attend a lot of college meets and I almost never see wrestling like this. Why? because for the vast majority out there, they can't do it because it doesn't work for them.
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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Jim - I don't know if it is a problem. You raise good questions.
I just know the output could be watching matches like Suriano-Fix, where no one wants to shoot because of the inherent risk.
Would Myles have won if he didn't attempt to score in the 3rd? Probably.
Would Joey have won if he didn't attempt to score? Probably.
Does that make wrestling more entertaining? Nah.
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Jim - I don't know if it is a problem. You raise good questions.
I just know the output could be watching matches like Suriano-Fix, where no one wants to shoot because of the inherent risk.
Would Myles have won if he didn't attempt to score in the 3rd? Probably.
Would Joey have won if he didn't attempt to score? Probably.
Does that make wrestling more entertaining? Nah."
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I do not disagree at all. I watched the Fix-Surioano match and realized there was about 15 minutes of life that I can't get back. A terrible match in my opinion.
Personally, and there will likely be dissenting views on this, I think the point value of a TD relative to an escape is terribly wrong. They made a NF into a 4 point move, why not make a TD worth 3? IMO, a takedown is much harder to achieve, especially at this level, than an escape.
That brings up the second point for me. Get RID of riding time. Watching someone like Fix just leach onto the opponents back (and he is VERY good at it) is not wrestling to me. As an alternative, you don't get riding time without NF being achieved.
I would love to see the choice of position go to whoever is leading on score. Of course that means the same person could have the choice in periods 2 and 3. So what? it would make for an incentive to actually score.
Just ideas.
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Don Bork added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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I absolutely agree with getting rid of riding time. We need rules that promote and reward wrestling in the center of the mat. Having the top man holding a tight waist while hooking the ankle along with other variations only waste time. Often times no real effort is being made to turn or tilt. We need to move in the direction of freestyle. If no progress is being made toward back exposure, stand the wrestlers back up.
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Jim - I don't know if it is a problem. You raise good questions.
I just know the output could be watching matches like Suriano-Fix, where no one wants to shoot because of the inherent risk.
Would Myles have won if he didn't attempt to score in the 3rd? Probably.
Would Joey have won if he didn't attempt to score? Probably.
Does that make wrestling more entertaining? Nah."
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I do not disagree at all. I watched the Fix-Surioano match and realized there was about 15 minutes of life that I can't get back. A terrible match in my opinion.
Personally, and there will likely be dissenting views on this, I think the point value of a TD relative to an escape is terribly wrong. They made a NF into a 4 point move, why not make a TD worth 3? IMO, a takedown is much harder to achieve, especially at this level, than an escape.
That brings up the second point for me. Get RID of riding time. Watching someone like Fix just leach onto the opponents back (and he is VERY good at it) is not wrestling to me. As an alternative, you don't get riding time without NF being achieved.
I would love to see the choice of position go to whoever is leading on score. Of course that means the same person could have the choice in periods 2 and 3. So what? it would make for an incentive to actually score.
Just ideas."
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Jim--you just became my favorite poster. Excellent suggestions.
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Patrick Niemann added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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I have been on board with the 3-point takedown for many years. How did they address NF prior to the TD. I am also in favor of no riding time if NF was not attained.
Jim-Very good points I must say.
I will say it is frustrating to watch matches such as Fix/ Suriano but when 2 very skilled wrestlers go at it, sometimes that is the result.
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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Quote from Patrick Niemann's post:
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"I have been on board with the 3-point takedown for many years. How did they address NF prior to the TD. I am also in favor of no riding time if NF was not attained.
Jim-Very good points I must say.
I will say it is frustrating to watch matches such as Fix/ Suriano but when 2 very skilled wrestlers go at it, sometimes that is the result."
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Stop. Seriously.
No reason to change TD-2. And rather than get rid of riding time, tweak it - no RT-1 unless NF is earned.
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Nicholas Sestito added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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I've always been a bit curious. Has anyone actually solicited current or just recently graduated college wrestlers for what would improve the action?
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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Mark - you think an escape should be worth half the value of a TD?
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Mark - you think an escape should be worth half the value of a TD?"
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And if so, what is the reason.
To back up my idea, guys give escapes away for many reasons.
I don't recall ever seeing anyone willingly give a TD.
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Mark - you think an escape should be worth half the value of a TD?"
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TD-2
E-1
A part of me feels TD-3 is change for the sake of change. Moreover, it would be worse than NF-4, as it would give the “get the lead and hold on†group more power.
If the discrepancy is the issue, I think the solution would be what I’ve purposes for quite some time...upon a restart (OOB, PD, etc) the top man may signal to the referee that neutral is desired. At that point, wrestlers restart in the neutral position with no points being awarded. Please note: the only time this would not be allowed is if wrestle B CHOOSES bottom at the start of a period, after injury timeout, or after stalling on top man has been called.
NOTE: My rules set works together in-tandem. No RT-1 unless NF is secured, and optional neutral restart are great ways to maintain the elements of the sport.
EDIT: I think what most people in the TD-3 camp dislike is is me getting 2 takedowns to one and it be possible that we’re tied. In that case, its’ not TD-3 that you’re asking for, it’s scoring discrepancy correction. By using my suggestion, the EARNED escape is still rewarded but gives the option for an unawarded escape. I think that’s the best solution.
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 27, 2019
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Change to freestyle.
Mark - too many rules. 3 pt td is easy.
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 28, 2019
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While my ideas are subject to criticism, I think the important take away is that some sort of incentive to score needs to be made. IMO, just trying to win should be incentive enough but, since I was never at this sort of level, maybe it is very different than I imagine.
Regardless of the method used, or the way points are scored, doing it in a certain way because it has always been that way doesn't work for me. If the product can be made better, let's do it.
BTW, I am not a fan of the 4 point NF. I think it blows the match open way too quickly. I could be wrong but I think in one of Pletcher's matches this year where he was taken to his back and down 6-0. I thought right then that the match was over as he doesn't score points like that.
BTW, Mark wrote:
"A part of me feels TD-3 is change for the sake of change. Moreover, it would be worse than NF-4, as it would give the “get the lead and hold on†group more power."
Maybe I am just dense but isn't that exactly what riding time does?
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Discussion Topic: It's the new style
Dan Strope added to this discussion on March 28, 2019
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"Mark - you think an escape should be worth half the value of a TD?"
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How many points do you think a wrestler should earn for escaping from Lizak, the Simmons brothers, Mitch Clark, Zane Rutherford, Gene Mills, Kyle Dake, Logan Stieber, Wade Schalles and other great pinners and riders? Easier to takedown these guys or get out?
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Last edited by Dan Strope on March 28, 2019; edited 1 time in total
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