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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Mike Stann added to this discussion on March 24, 2024
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How does this crew feel about the coaches challenges? I am of two minds in that you want to see the call be correct but I have to tell you all the breaks in the matches that this causes (especially in the tournament) seem to work against one of the most important attributes in wrestling, the gas tank. I saw, imo, bricks being thrown not so much to challenge a call but to get their guy a break.
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 24, 2024
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As long as I am on here, I might as well chime in.
I will say that officials want to get the calls correct. Not one single official I know wants to be held up to ridicule on Youtube or Flo for a call that went sour. That does NOT mean that they can not make a mistake, we are all human.
That said, I am not a fan of video review on calls. This was made very clear in the Figueroa match where (we were told) the review was over whether fingers hooked a shoe or not. Let's be real, there is no official (or anyone on this forum) who would ever see something like this while the wrestlers are down on the mat. You are looking at a multitude of different things and shoes are not likely to be one of them. Until I saw this last night, the thought of getting a finger hooked in a shoe never crossed my mind.
In addition, I agree that breaks like this take away from the conditioning of the athletes. That seems contrary to what we believe the sport is about.
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Last edited by Jim Behrens on March 24, 2024; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Casey Talbott added to this discussion on March 24, 2024
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Jim -
Not directly on topic, but what's the criteria for awarding back points in the spladle position?
In Mendez's match, Hardy's shoulders were elevated, even resting on Mendez; but a fair portion of his back seemed exposed.
Then again, I guess I'm not certain what "criteria" is.
Here's a related video (fast-forward to the 8:35 mark).
Fortunately, Mendez didn't need the back points to win.
Welcome your input.
Casey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDywFqCezec
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Last edited by Casey Talbott on March 24, 2024; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 24, 2024
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Casey,
First, let me say that I am not a college official so I could be wildly off here.
The criteria do not change because of the particular hold being used. They are that the shoulders (or scapula) are within 4" of the mat, in a high bridge or on both elbows, or if one shoulder is touching the mat (that is important) and the other shoulder is at 45* or less.
My guess is that the only criteria that was close to being met was 4" or less from the mat BUT that is a hard one to achieve when the offensive man's body is holding him up. Most humans are more than 4" front to rear. He wasn't bridging, not on both elbows, and neither shoulder was on the mat with the other at 45*.
My question, even as I watched it, was whether or not the scapula were within 4" but the official was right there and he certainly had a better view than I did.
Hopefully that helps,
Jim
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Casey Talbott added to this discussion on March 24, 2024
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Understood and appreciated.
Sure seems to me that the scapula area was flirting with the 4-inch requirement.
But the ref seemed to be honed-in on that, and had a better view than we did (via tv).
Also, seems like Mendez was aware that he was not getting backs; prob could have adjusted his position if necessary.
But no need to risk it.
Again, thanks.
Oh, I added the video (8:35 mark).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDywFqCezec
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 24, 2024
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Quote from Casey Talbott's post:
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"Understood and appreciated.
Sure seems to me that the scapula area was flirting with the 4-inch requirement.
But the ref seemed to be honed-in on that, and had a better view than we did (via tv).
Also, seems like Mendez was aware that he was not getting backs; prob could have adjusted his position if necessary.
But no need to risk it.
Again, thanks.
Oh, I added the video (8:35 mark).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDywFqCezec"
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Funny, I didn't see the video at first, typed my response and then it appeared.
I thought I was losing my mind.
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Casey Talbott added to this discussion on March 24, 2024
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Ha, nope, your mind is fine. ;)
Okay, last question on this -
Since Hardy wasn't in criteria, and neither wrestler was working (or perhaps able) to improve his position, could the ref have called a stalemate there?
That would have been a major buzz-kill, for us; but Hardy sure would have welcomed it.
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 24, 2024
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The short answer is, no.
A stalemate is defined as a situation where the contestants are locked in position OTHER than a pinning situation in which neither wrestler can improve.
IOW, for us, NFHS Rule 5-23 says it can't be done. I suspect the NCAA rule must be similar.
The other thought relates to what you wrote earlier. Mendez might have been able to shift his position in order to score but there was no need. This would mean that it is not a stalemate situation.
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Jason L. Jackson added to this discussion on March 24, 2024
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I think the video should shut off after 1 minute, and if no new decision has been communicated before that, the original call stands.
That should be the rule for all sports and all challenges/reviews.
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Jeff Streu added to this discussion on March 30, 2024
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Quote from Jason L. Jackson's post:
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"I think the video should shut off after 1 minute, and if no new decision has been communicated before that, the original call stands.
That should be the rule for all sports and all challenges/reviews."
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I'd like that as a change. Some of the matches end up taking SO long as a result of challenges.
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 30, 2024
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Just playing Devil's Advocate and I want to stress that I have no problem with the idea. I do agree that the reviews take far too long.
Do we want to call right or fast?
If there is a time limit placed on the review, why have the review at all? Just go with the call on the mat.
Discus among yourselves.
Happy Easter to all,
Jim
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Jason L. Jackson added to this discussion on March 31, 2024
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To me, to change the call there should be obvious error. The "right" call can still be looked at by many as being "wrong" (i.e. Bo Jordan finals match), so if you look at the video, and it's clear that the call should be reversed, then reverse it. If it's not, then leave it as is.
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 31, 2024
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Quote from Jason L. Jackson's post:
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"To me, to change the call there should be obvious error. The "right" call can still be looked at by many as being "wrong" (i.e. Bo Jordan finals match), so if you look at the video, and it's clear that the call should be reversed, then reverse it. If it's not, then leave it as is."
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Bo had the takedown.
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Chris Thomas added to this discussion on March 31, 2024
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"Ian Miller" was involved in the most egregious match in NCAA history. Imagine the NCAA telling you an hour later they got the score wrong but it wouldnt be overturned..... I just hope no one will ever go through that situation again and we keep making improvements to the current system.
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Discussion Topic: Coaches Challenges
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on March 31, 2024
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Quote from Chris Thomas's post:
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""Ian Miller" was involved in the most egregious match in NCAA history. Imagine the NCAA telling you an hour later they got the score wrong but it wouldnt be overturned..... I just hope no one will ever go through that situation again and we keep making improvements to the current system."
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While that certainly was one of the worst, that situation was the result of a failed rule by the rules makers. It was not a failure of the officials on the mat. They had to call it the way the rule, at that time, said it had to be called.
However, crap never rolls uphill and the two of them had to sit out the following years tournament even though it was not their fault.
Actually, IMO, the way it was explained by the head official (I forget his name) made less sense than the rule did.
BTW, the rules around this have since been changed.
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