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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 13, 2008
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Another thread discussed tournies and duals as part of the high school schedule. I want to offer my perspective (and opinion) as to why duals have waned.
Simple explanation: as program numbers have dwindled for many schools, they've chosen to beef up on tournament competition. The reason is because no one wants to wrestle a lot of duals when they have holes in their lineup. Also, tournies provide better competition for the best competitors in each program.
I was head coach at Shaker Heights from 1992-2000. During this period, we went from a lot of duals to as many tournies as I could fit. For me, it was an attempt to get good competition for the best kids on my squad. Since we were locked in to 8 league duals most years, it was important to use the remaining points on our schedule to benefit my most dedicated wrestlers. Also, duals for us usually went one of two ways. Either we were wrestling someone lousy (Shaw, Euclid, and Parma were pretty down at this time), getting a lot of forfeits, and not benefitting a lot from the experience. Or, we were getting destroyed by someone like Mentor or Garfield--which was a good dual for my better kids but the majority of our lineup was getting crushed. Tournies--particularly pool style--provided the perfect competitive environment for both groups of kids. So I sought them out as much as possible.
I still believe that nothing is more exciting than a good dual meet. But 14 weight classes is a lot for many programs to fill. The LEL, where I coached, went to a one day dual tourney after I retired because it was in the best interests of the squads. They reduced significantly the number of points (you have 20) used up in league duals. Now, they wrestle their league duals and still have 18 points to use in other ways. It's not good for conferences. But as long as participation numbers ebb, dual meets are forfeit fests. Its still exciting to win a dual and wrestle one on one in front of your home crowd. But I can't blame hs coaches for reducing duals. The payoff wasn't what it used to be.
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Maggie Lamantia added to this discussion on April 13, 2008
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i concur.
If word gets out and enough people can attend and get fired up, dual matches can be lots of fun. You get more of the "competition" and "team v. team" atmosphere. I've read on here before about (pardon my French) "back in the day" when schools would host dual matches during school... maybe I'm showing my youth, but how would that work, exactly? One school gets their entire fan base, and the other only has their teammates and coaches?... I think it'd be cool at MY school... but not if it were an "away" match, per se.
<sign_oh>
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Brian Davis added to this discussion on April 13, 2008
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Hank this is a great topic.
I can see and feel the pain you experienced as a head coach by having to "search" for competition due to a weaker league schedule.
ADVOCATES NEEDED
The real thing that seems to be missing in wrestling then is advocates who teach inside a school. If a school district has at least one person on staff at the middle school (hopefully more) and two people on staff at the high school, and those individuals actually work inside the building they teach...the squad will be filled...and will even have extras. This is assuming the coaches are serious about the sport.
It becomes way too easy for a school district to "dump" on a sport like wrestling if it has no advocates.
Coaches also need more flexibility in scheduling matches outside of league meets. It becomes more logical to wrestle a second team against the weak competition of schools who cannot field a full squad.
A dual meet is phenomenal when there are two evenly matched teams...talk about intensity.
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Robert Seibert added to this discussion on April 14, 2008
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Quote from Brian Davis's post:
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"Hank this is a great topic.
I can see and feel the pain you experienced as a head coach by having to "search" for competition due to a weaker league schedule.
ADVOCATES NEEDED
The real thing that seems to be missing in wrestling then is advocates who teach inside a school. If a school district has at least one person on staff at the middle school (hopefully more) and two people on staff at the high school, and those individuals actually work inside the building they teach...the squad will be filled...and will even have extras. This is assuming the coaches are serious about the sport.
It becomes way too easy for a school district to "dump" on a sport like wrestling if it has no advocates.
Coaches also need more flexibility in scheduling matches outside of league meets. It becomes more logical to wrestle a second team against the weak competition of schools who cannot field a full squad.
A dual meet is phenomenal when there are two evenly matched teams...talk about intensity."
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We actually don't have any coaches "inside" the school as teachers, but we are working on it and see the benefit. However, we have been able to fill atleast 12 of the weight classes for an awful long time. I think having wrestlers that recruit inside the halls and on the other teams they are on helps as well. We've really stressed the youth program and just having fun, it pays off.
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on April 14, 2008
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Brian: I do not teach. But when Mark Enie took over at Shaker, he taught gym in the building. As a result, Shaker usually has around 30 wrestlers on the squad per season. While many lack experience, it makes all the difference from a numbers standpoint.
Still, to run a successful public school program, you need a dedicated wrestling room, and committed coaches that teach within the school. You also need a flourishing youth program in your community.
So many things go wrong in a public setting. The most obvious is that the best qualified coach doesn't necessarily get the job. Seniority takes precedence over competence. And school systems are often unwilling to make minor adjustments to accommodate wrestling programs.
Here's an example. My program was moved to the high school in 1998 from an elementary school where we had a room. They refurbished the locker room that was directly off the room where we now practiced for our use. I decorated the locker room with posters and calendars in anticipation of the season starting. Then, we suddenly couldn't use the locker room. Why? Because girls basketball didn't have a locker room while boys basketball and wrestling did. Title 9 violation. So, we had to change in a different locker room, walk to our new practice facility while the girls team used our locker room. This also meant our practices were constantly interrrupted by girls going in and out of the locker room. It was so stupid yet that's how public schools operate.
Did I mention that I yanked my daughter out of public school after two years and sent her to private? Had no choice. Public schools are absurd places in this day and age. I could go on and on....
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Ken Maltry added to this discussion on April 14, 2008
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I graduated from HS in '94, and my first two years our wrestling coach was also the gym teacher. We had full varsity and reserve lineups, as well as varsity and reserve B-teams, along with about 25 frosh. The new coach was a terrific coach, but wasn't a teacher. By the time I was a senior, we had to scramble just to fill the lineups. Participation dropped by about a half. Sad, indeed.
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 14, 2008
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Quote from Maggie Lamantia's post:
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"
I concur.
If word gets out and enough people can attend and get fired up, dual matches can be lots of fun. You get more of the "competition" and "team v. team" atmosphere. I've read on here before about (pardon my French) "back in the day" when schools would host dual matches during school... maybe I'm showing my youth, but how would that work, exactly? One school gets their entire fan base, and the other only has their teammates and coaches?... I think it'd be cool at MY school... but not if it were an "away" match, per se.
<sign_oh>
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Maggie, these were not during school but in the evening just like football and basketball games. Of course, depending on the two school involved these were often VERY well attended because the students and people from the communities who followed these teams knew it would only last a couple of hours, there would be non-stop action involving their teams. Most schools had wrestling cheerleaders, and they were events.
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Gary Sommers added to this discussion on April 14, 2008
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Brian: I do not teach. But when Mark Enie took over at Shaker, he taught gym in the building. As a result, Shaker usually has around 30 wrestlers on the squad per season. While many lack experience, it makes all the difference from a numbers standpoint.
Still, to run a successful public school program, you need a dedicated wrestling room, and committed coaches that teach within the school. You also need a flourishing youth program in your community.
So many things go wrong in a public setting. The most obvious is that the best qualified coach doesn't necessarily get the job. Seniority takes precedence over competence. And school systems are often unwilling to make minor adjustments to accommodate wrestling programs.
Here's an example. My program was moved to the high school in 1998 from an elementary school where we had a room. They refurbished the locker room that was directly off the room where we now practiced for our use. I decorated the locker room with posters and calendars in anticipation of the season starting. Then, we suddenly couldn't use the locker room. Why? Because girls basketball didn't have a locker room while boys basketball and wrestling did. Title 9 violation. So, we had to change in a different locker room, walk to our new practice facility while the girls team used our locker room. This also meant our practices were constantly interrrupted by girls going in and out of the locker room. It was so stupid yet that's how public schools operate.
Did I mention that I yanked my daughter out of public school after two years and sent her to private? Had no choice. Public schools are absurd places in this day and age. I could go on and on...."
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Private and Catholic schools are not subject to Title 9?
I have a completely different view of public schools. Of course not all are the same, just as Chanel and Trinity are not Ignatius or Walsh. I would much rather root for a public school where, hopefully, sports are the extracurricular they were meant to be than a private or Catholic where the "student" athletes come from miles/cities/counties away and kind of form a "team".
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Ben Roerig added to this discussion on April 14, 2008
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As far as duals go, it is a frustrating thing for wrestlers to practice all week long, make weight, and then receive a forfeit. Afterall, that is the payoff of multiple workouts a day and a grueling practice schedule. On the other hand, I don't know if their is anything quite as exciting as an evenly-contested dual meet, regardless of skill level. Put two good teams vs. one another or two less skilled teams against one another, and if the matches are exciting I feel like i'm watching an exciting college dual. I'm more likely to scream or get excited watching two JV wrestlers go at it than I am watching the Men's NCAA basketabll final or the Super Bowl (unless the Browns make it this year...)
In terms of having coaches teaching in the school, my head coach was a teacher and I believe it had HUGE benefits. He was able to be more fully involved in the everyday lives of the wrestlers and could help them steer clear of trouble. Not in the sense that he kept us from the consequences of our actions, but rather that he was able to talk to teachers and find out how his wrestlers were doing in the classroom both with work and behavior wise. His presence also helped to get many kids on the team who ended up being decent wrestlers, merely by saying "you look like a wrestler," or encouraging other athletes to give it a try. His involvement in his wrestlers has helped countless kids who might not have otherwise made it through high school had he not got on them about their behavior and grades.
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Dan Ransick added to this discussion on April 14, 2008
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Hank there is nothing quite like a great dual meet between two fierce rivals in a gym. When I was a junior and senior in high school our gym was packed to the brim for the Lakota West vs. Lakota East dual. You had two #1 ranked wrestlers in the gym and a slew of other great wrestlers that brought the rivalry to a whole new level. Now it is a shell of what it used to be.
I think one of the greatest wrestling experiences I have had is going to watch St. Paris Graham wrestle St. Eds at Graham. Graham has a gym straight from Hoosiers which makes the experience that much better.
Tournaments are a lot better test of talent these days especially with how much talent seems to be entered in some of them.
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Don Mahon added to this discussion on April 14, 2008
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You should have [or did you?] seen the Moeller-Elder dual the beginning of last season! 3 deep standing room only. Great stuff!
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Dan Ransick added to this discussion on April 14, 2008
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I remember the Fairfield vs. Moeller duals in the early 2000's when both programs were very strong. The gyms were packed and both have big gyms and the rivalry was very strong.
I didn't make it to the Elder vs. Moeller dual. I did hear about how packed it was and you have to love especially in Cincy where it seems wrestling is often put on the back burner.
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Maggie Lamantia added to this discussion on April 20, 2008
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Quote from Gary Sommers's post:
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"
I have a completely different view of public schools. Of course not all are the same, just as Chanel and Trinity are not Ignatius or Walsh. I would much rather root for a public school where, hopefully, sports are the extracurricular they were meant to be than a private or Catholic where the "student" athletes come from miles/cities/counties away and kind of form a "team"."
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I couldn't agree more. At my school, our boys have been wrestling together and playing sports together since 5th grade flag football. There is a sense of comradry like no other.
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Discussion Topic: Tournaments v. Duals
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on April 20, 2008
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we all love a packed crowd hotly contested dual with no forfeits, but there aren't many.
whether great tourn like Ironman and Brecksville and MIT and Top Gun exist or not, this does not impact whether teams can have "great duals". i personally think the great tourn in Ohio have raised the level of comp here in Ohio (in fact some coaches have commented this to me) --- esp tourn that bring in good out of state comp, different styles.
Let every coach decide his teams own schedule, after all he knows his team best.
And fans will decide themselves what they enjoy by attending or not attending.
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