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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Quote from Vince DiSabato's post:
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"Dan, I agree with much of what you write but first off.... Real Pro Wrestling was/is not a failure. In fact I spent some two hours recently with Toby Willis in Nashville TN and he is planning on bringing the format back in the very near future. As a matter of fact they were very close to signing with Spike TV prior to MMA.
I agree with your assertion that MMA has breathed some life back into Wrestling. Wrestling/Jui-Jitsu/Tae Kwon Do and Karate Combined Dojos is the way to go. Because it allows the proprietor of the Dojo to offer more disciplines and protects the Dojo. Sell Wrestling as the Martial Art that it is.
Willis wants to combine the two olympic sports of Greco and Freestyle. I don't care for the idea. But Folkstyle is holding us all back.
USA Wrestling is the major drawback! They do not wish to build the sport. They wish to protect their $200,000 a year jobs and compensate a few Olympic/World Class hopefulls with under $20,000 a year stipends. Even FILA doesn't want them in charge!
Screw the NCAA and their adherence to Title IX Proportionality. Wrestling, Baseball, Swimming and Track and Field will all disappear under their "guidance" and siphoning of disappearing Federal funds.
You do not beat Title IX and the lobbyist by fighting them. You beat them by going a different way."
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Vince, well spoken. I couldn't agree with you more. I had no idea, however, Real Pro wrestling was close to signing a deal with Spike. I do agree with a comment previously made that wrestling will be a hard sell on tv given the current popularity of MMA. People would love wrestling if you threw punches, but as was said before wrestling is more like a chess match and less like a NASCAR crash. Only true wrestling enthusiasts would watch 1-0 matches with nervous anticipation. Only those who have battled through the sport would understand how fragile such a lead is and anything could still happen. Unfortunately, there aren't enough of us out there to make wrestling a financially sound TV investment. Why do you think they only show highlights of Olympic matches? I would have loved to watch the Gardner/Karelin match completely. One has to wonder if the future of post high school wrestling won't end up being a set up like Team Foxcatcher or Sunkist Kids where you train and wrestle for international competition but as payment, they pay for your college. College wrestling as we know it gone and we end up like the rest of the world training for world competition after high school. Makes you think.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"I have said it before and will say it again wrestling will die untill we go to freestyle."
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I think the exact opposite. Wrestling will die if we go to Freestyle. There are some majorly unattractive things about it. Here are three:
1. Constantly changing rules
2. Any type of clinch, but especially the leg clinch
3. Exposure is not an easy thing for a casual observer to pick up on.
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"The big throws are what people want to see and will fill the stands. No one goes to a NASCAR race to watch a bunch of cars go in circles they go for the crashes which throws would be our equivalent."
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I don't understand why anyone would watch auto racing but to each his own. IMO, your analogy doesn't work. A Jaggers ankle pick, a Weakley blast double, the PalmerHalf, and all that is as exciting to see as a throw.
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"You CAN'T put the blame on USA wrestling because they are not our governing body in america they govern freestyle and Greco as a "branch" of FILA."
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You couldn't be any farther from the truth. USA Wrestling is most definitely the governing body of wrestling in America. They choose to follow FILA's every move and stick with only what FILA says. They reap what they sow..
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"The only True governing body of folkstyle is the NCAA, which could really care less about wrestling they want the big name sports."
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Well, the NCAA is the governing body for most of college wrestling (not NAIA or NCWA) but wrestling as a whole? No. It's not so much that they could care less about wrestling and the other small-market sports, it's that they only care about MONEY, which is mainly made by the big-market sports.
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"No way can wrestling even try to touch what mma has done over the past couple years, not under folkstyle atleast."
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You couldn't be farther from the truth, IMO. According to research done by the National High School Coaches Association, wrestling has the third most participants of ANY SPORT for high school males in America. That's folkstyle. With that kind of a foundation, there is absolutely no reason why folkstyle wrestling can't do as well as MMA.
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"Folkstyle wrestling at the higher levels is more comparative to chess than mma. It is thought out calculated movements. When the same thing happens in mma the crowd boos and you don't see those guys on a pay per view again. I have said it for a couple years and will say it one more time if you want to save wrestling we need to ditch folkstyle and go for freestyle like the rest of the world. The only reason we don't is because people think we are "special" because we wrestle folkstyle. If it is such a good style why doesn't the rest of the world do it? We need to put our egos aside and go with what is working and that is freestyle."
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Changes need to be made to folkstyle to promote action, but we don't need to ditch the style as a whole!!! When talking about world wrestling, what you fail to realize is that most countries/areas have their own styles of wrestling. There are hundreds of styles of wrestling around the world that we never even hear about because they are unique to their home land. It's not about ego at all, it's just a fact. Freestyle and Greco-Roman are the babies of FILA. We don't have to follow FILA!!! Did the NFL follow anyone? Did the MLB? Did the NBA? No to all.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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I loved RPW's format and style. It added the best components of all styles together. More importantly, it got wrestlers off the mat. Wrestling purists appreciate good riding. But even Fred Feeney, a respected NCAA D1 official, has admitted that the first minute of riding is tantamount to stalling. Who wants to watch one guy sit on the others hips--and we give the guy a point for doing it!
During the years I was a high school coach, I taught freestyle and greco in the spring with a minimal amount of experience in either style. Over the course of my head coaching career--8 years--Shaker had probably two dozen kids wrestle in Fargo. Freestyle and Greco are more fun for participants and easier to teach.
Tony nails it when he discusses the egos involved in major college wrestling. These guys don't care enough about what's happening outside their little fiefdoms to recognize the need to consider serious change. They're arguing over how to determine NCAA qualifiers which is insipid when the sport keeps getting dropped by D1 programs. Unfortunately, the Big Ten and the Big Five are the only really healthy conferences. Everyone else is in danger.
One thing to note: Wrestling is reasonably healthy at the D3 and NAIA levels. Lots of D3 programs (no scholarships) and the NAIA keeps adding programs. It's D1 wrestling (and presumeably D2) that are in the biggest trouble. It's also exploded at the club level (NCWA); I've suggested before that the NCWA could be our collegiate avenue to freestyle and greco. I think it's still relevant.
If nothing else, I think college wrestling has to move to the spring and it's wrestlers need to get a lot more involved in freestyle and greco.
DC--you need to closely read what Josh Lowe wrote. He nails it. Change is necessary. I'm not advocating the complete elimination of folkstyle. But we have to get our best collegiate competitors more involved with our olympic styles. I don't know how. I only know we should.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Folks, let's not get all over Folkstyle as the downfall of wrestling in the US. Freestyle will not bring in fans anymore than folkstyle will, and winning more Olympic and World medals won't either. The United States in always among the top medal earners at the Olympics in all sports, but what is on TV, swimming, track, basketball, gymnastics, then the occasional snippet of an American athlete with a story to tell. Winning medals will not get wrestling off the 1 am Olympic coverage. Wrestlers are not million dollar professional athletes like the track athletes and the basketball players. They are not 12 year old girls like the gymnast. They are what they are and that is not exciting enough to people that don't know wrestling.
Fans don't come to watch wrestling because it is not a simple sport to understand. Basketball, football, baseball, they are all simple sports to understand. The only way for wrestling to attract more fans is to get more youth involved. My parents didn't know anything about wrestling, didn't want to know anything about wrestling, until I started wrestling as a kid. Now, they are lifelong supporters and my father still comes to watch local high school matches wrestled by kids that he doesn't know anymore. He took my son to watch Ohio State wrestle Michigan because I couldn't take him.
Some of you have talked about wrestling being a non-revenue sport. Again, let us not kid ourselves, 80% of NCAA DI men's basketball teams lose money or just break even. Only the big boys make money in college basketball. You will never see a school drop a basketball team though because there is a female equivalent. Big dollar donations are made by basketball fans as well.
What is the answer for wrestling? I don't know. I wish I did. Title IX change is needed. Better marketing is needed. A grassroots effort is needed. More financial support, from those that can afford it, is needed. The list could go on.
I will be surprised if this is the last that we hear of ASU though. Arthur Martori would have to have something to say about all this I would think.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Dan...I agreed - enthusiastically, even - with every counterpoint you put out there!
I LOVE folkstyle wrestling. L-O-V-E it.
People rail against folkstyle and say it is holding us back...but we still do great in the olympics.
And that's against guys that do it THEIR WHOLE LIVES!!!
As any American ever competed exclusively in Freestyle or Greco? I don't think it's happen in my time, but maybe it happened back in the day.
I suppose the other side of that is imagine what we could do if we JUST did freestyle and greco? Yeah but at what cost??? You think folkstyle wrestling is hard to sell?????? Try changing the rules every two years to make it darn near a different sport.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Scott: I think you answered your own questioned... Why won't the 80% of basketball programs get dropped???
There's your answer. Who would have thought that Brian Nicola was the answer to our problems!?!
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Again: I thought the RPW hybrid was a nice mix of folk, free and greco. Better sport from a spectator perspective. Ultimately, it's true that folkstyle is not the problem. Title 9 is. We keep getting cut because there's no female equivalent. Having said this, it's D1 wrestling that's in trouble. Collegiate wrestling is not going to stop. As someone that has coached all 3 styles, however, I will say that the other two are more fun.
DC: Wrestling is the 6th most participated in boys activity behind football, basketball, baseball, soccer and track. Not a bad number, but we're not #3. Check your source on that info.
Folkstyle wrestling may be the hardest sport in the world.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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some of you guys are way off base
,
this elimination of mens college sports incl wrestling has
NOTHING to do with
USA WR or the freestyle vs folkstyle debate.
PROOF: go back to pre-1972
, there were several times as many College wrestling programs in America as there are today---
with FOLKSTYLE
---- then in 1972 Title IX went into effect when a Federal law that-i-forget-the-name-of was passed.
so whats the DIF between today and pre-1972 ??? the major DIF is Title IX and
its interpretation
by the Justice Dept, the Dept of Education and the Colleges themselves..
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Bob: That's true. But in the case of ASU, Fresno State and U of Oregon, the schools were in compliance (as interpreted in its politically correct manner). The issue was Title 9. Now it's the affects of title 9 (these schools have lots of womens sports that lose money) plus the economics of supporting Big Time college sports.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Hank,
yes
the effects of Title IX
, thats what i said or meant, and yes these colleges that have droped mens wrestling are "in compliance", we havent heard any different --- yes its a budget thing now because all these extra womens sports are money losers (as are most mens sports too.)
BUT any way u cut it, the DIF between now and pre-1972 is Title IX
, as ive said----- Not some USA Wrestling issue or folkstyle vs freestyle --
u know what they say in politics, "Its the economy, stupid." Well in this case
its the effects of Title IX
clearly that are causing this. .
(and i bring it up again as i often do, but mens college football is a killer, too---
why do they need 85 fulls per team in Div I football, when the best players in the world the NFL have squads numbering 53 players ????
)
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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While I agree we are feeling the effects of title IX, I believe the reason most here were throwing blame at USA wrestling is because what are they doing to counter the effects of Title IX? One could argue they are the governing body for USA wrestling and its rules, but I would argue they are responsible for the overall health of the sport and not just how the sport is executed on the mat. They should be looking ahead and seeing Title IX isn't going away, but we very well may if we don't refine our marketing and our appeal to the casual observer. We have to start making it difficult for universities to cut our sport. We won't do that with 3/4 empty arenas.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Mike Taylor & Dan Cosimi,
USA Wrestling is NOT a governing body of anything, except FILA (the 2 Olympic styles) in the USA, thats all.
i cannot understand why anyone would think USA Wr has a significant say in college wrestling (nor high school/youth wrestling) ?
Was USA Wrestling (or the NWCA for that matter either) instrumental in building the many strong HIGH SCHOOL programs in America ? of course not. The great high school tournaments, did we ask USA WR advice on how to conduct the Ironman ? Fifty years ago when the Brecksville holiday tourn began, did USA WR have a hand in it ? of course not.
The great YOUTH wrestling in Ohio, does it owe anything major to USA WR or the NWCA ? heck no. Youth in Ohio owes individual Ohio men with guts, determination and vision like Ken Dies, Bob Conley, Jude Roth, Dave Mariola Sr, Graham Coghill, Jeff Jordan, Erik Burnett and others i apologize for not mentioning.
The fact the sport is prospering everywhere EXCEPT in COLLEGE in America has to do with the brains, work, guts, and vision of powerhouse men & women in every state (except Mississippi). Not USA WR.
some national leadership is coming from the NWCA, yes they are trying, but its not strong enough to save these programs. Maybe they got started too late ? maybe the time to stem the tide and baricade the wall was back in the 1970's and 1980's ??????
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Don Stocum added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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making the switch to freestyle or greco would change absolutley nothing. We have to understand that college wrestling is just not going to have the same spectator turnout as other sports (i.e. football, basketball) and thats just the way it is. I can't imagine how much money that pro wrestling show lost... <thumbsdown>
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Dan:
Wrestling sounds like politicians who will not listen to their constituents and the same things keep happening. Don't they get it? Wrestling is a boring spectator sport to the average sports fan. The rules are too confusing to the spectators, there are too many variations of the rules by the officials (different interpretations for the same call). Riding time promotes low action and in most cases results in very little scoring. Most officials do not call stalling, again promoting low scoring. We took an international sport and made our rules different than the rest of the world. What arrogance!
The highest goal of a wrestler is an Olympic Gold Medal, yet we train our wrestlers in techniques that sometimes hinder our progress in the Olympic styles. By confusing our sports base with so many versions of wrestling, how can we expect a non-competitor to know what is going on in a match? As long as we keep trying to please the old faithful of wrestling we are not going to entice any new fans from the other sports.
So far our success rate is very low, are we going to just keep doing the same things and let the cancer eat away until wrestling dies?
As for a Pro-Folkstyle league; non-wrestling fans do not like folkstyle (never have, never will). The non-wrestling fan likes action and scoring, and with equal competitors wrestling's rules do not promote that style. The new freestyle rules (without the win by periods) and win by total score as a match should, could be the fire to start the engine.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"I'm sorry Dan but I have to disagree with you on almost every point.
I have said it before and will say it again wrestling will die untill we go to freestyle. Maybe not freestyle to the T as put by FILA, but maybe with some variations to make it a little more interesting. The big throws are what people want to see and will fill the stands. No one goes to a NASCAR race to watch a bunch of cars go in circles they go for the crashes which throws would be our equivalent.
You CAN'T put the blame on USA wrestling because they are not our governing body in america they govern freestyle and Greco as a "branch" of FILA. The only True governing body of folkstyle is the NCAA, which could really care less about wrestling they want the big name sports.
No way can wrestling even try to touch what mma has done over the past couple years, not under folkstyle atleast. Folkstyle wrestling at the higher levels is more comparative to chess than mma. It is thought out calculated movements. When the same thing happens in mma the crowd boos and you don't see those guys on a pay per view again.
I have said it for a couple years and will say it one more time if you want to save wrestling we need to ditch folkstyle and go for freestyle like the rest of the world. The only reason we don't is because people think we are "special" because we wrestle folkstyle. If it is such a good style why doesn't the rest of the world do it? We need to put our egos aside and go with what is working and that is freestyle."
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Tony:
Great post, you are 100% correct.
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