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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"I loved RPW's format and style. It added the best components of all styles together. More importantly, it got wrestlers off the mat. Wrestling purists appreciate good riding. But even Fred Feeney, a respected NCAA D1 official, has admitted that the first minute of riding is tantamount to stalling. Who wants to watch one guy sit on the others hips--and we give the guy a point for doing it!
During the years I was a high school coach, I taught freestyle and greco in the spring with a minimal amount of experience in either style. Over the course of my head coaching career--8 years--Shaker had probably two dozen kids wrestle in Fargo. Freestyle and Greco are more fun for participants and easier to teach.
Tony nails it when he discusses the egos involved in major college wrestling. These guys don't care enough about what's happening outside their little fiefdoms to recognize the need to consider serious change. They're arguing over how to determine NCAA qualifiers which is insipid when the sport keeps getting dropped by D1 programs. Unfortunately, the Big Ten and the Big Five are the only really healthy conferences. Everyone else is in danger.
One thing to note: Wrestling is reasonably healthy at the D3 and NAIA levels. Lots of D3 programs (no scholarships) and the NAIA keeps adding programs. It's D1 wrestling (and presumeably D2) that are in the biggest trouble. It's also exploded at the club level (NCWA); I've suggested before that the NCWA could be our collegiate avenue to freestyle and greco. I think it's still relevant.
If nothing else, I think college wrestling has to move to the spring and it's wrestlers need to get a lot more involved in freestyle and greco.
DC--you need to closely read what Josh Lowe wrote. He nails it. Change is necessary. I'm not advocating the complete elimination of folkstyle. But we have to get our best collegiate competitors more involved with our olympic styles. I don't know how. I only know we should."
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Hank:
You understand what needs to be done, now you need to have a little talk with Dan to set him straight. Old thoughts like Dan's are just going to keep us going downhill fast.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Bob:
I didn't say USA Wrestling governs high school wrestling and I didn't say USA Wrestling governs college wrestling.
If a decision is made for wrestling as a whole, though, it probably comes from USA Wrestling because they have the most power in our sport of any group.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Ken: Dan is over 20 years younger than me.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Ethan Moore added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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As usual, Jason Bryant and InterMat provide great coverage of this tragedy.
http://www.intermatwrestle.com/news/newsdisplay.aspx?ID=7270
I am incredibly disappointed by this turn of events. What I can't understand is why Love is saying the wrestling program would need an endowment of 8 million dollars to continue participating? Wrestling has to be one of the cheapest sports to support.
Again, the numbers are mind boggling when you consider the percentage of male athletes that football consumes when looking at numbers.
Perhaps a "Want a full ride? Sign up for Womens' Crew!" will be hanging in the dorms at ASU some time soon.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Dom Mancini added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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It is amazing to me that every time a Division 1 school drops a wrestling program it's a shocker! Well the sport has been dying for many years. Albeit a slow death, but those of us who have been in the sport for a long time (30 years) have watched many a program disappear. Then there is an uproar but the university waits it out and it's gone for good.
In 1985, Youngstown State dropped their program and I had to transfer to Ohio University. As I sit here and think about my college days, I think of some of the schools I wrestled against in Ohio that no longer have the sport: Wright State, Miami, Capital, Malone, Toledo - all gone and never coming back. I remember asking my college coach at YSU about why wrestling can't break through and become a popular sport in the big picture of things. He said: "Wrestling is like a fungus. Some years it gets better and some years it gets worse but it never really gets any better and it never really goes away!"
It has always been frustrating that we seem to have to fight for everything we get and then get it all taken away in the end anyway. How about Ohio State, does anyone think that they will ever drop wrestling? It might not be in the next 10 years, but who knows? It could happen.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Warren Edwards added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Heard some talk on this on the radio today. They said:
ASU will now have 12 womens sports and only 8 mens sports.
It is about title 9 requiring equal scholorships. Football alone is taking 85 scholarships for the men.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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As long as proportionality is interpreted as equal opportunities for men and women, wrestling is near it's back in the third period in a match it's already losing.
We have needed a new way to determine compliance for years but have yet to win that argument in court.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Quote from Dan Cosimi's post:
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"Bob:
I didn't say USA Wrestling governs high school wrestling and I didn't say USA Wrestling governs college wrestling.
If a decision is made for wrestling as a whole, though, it probably comes from USA Wrestling because they have the most power in our sport of any group."
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Dan:
I believe the NFHS, NHSCA, NCAA and the NWCA wield the most power and influence in wrestling. USAW and the AAU would have a smaller influence.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on May 14, 2008
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Quote from Ethan Moore's post:
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"As usual, Jason Bryant and InterMat provide great coverage of this tragedy.
http://www.intermatwrestle.com/news/newsdisplay.aspx?ID=7270
I am incredibly disappointed by this turn of events. What I can't understand is why Love is saying the wrestling program would need an endowment of 8 million dollars to continue participating? Wrestling has to be one of the cheapest sports to support.
Again, the numbers are mind boggling when you consider the percentage of male athletes that football consumes when looking at numbers.
Perhaps a "Want a full ride? Sign up for Womens' Crew!" will be hanging in the dorms at ASU some time soon."
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Ethan:
What would be the average cost of 9.9 scholarships at a public university? I would guess about $15,000 per year for room, board, tuition and books for each scholarship. (About $148,500.) Salaries for coaches about $140,000 ($65,000 HC, 35,000 HA, 25,000 A and $15,000 V.) Wrestling budgets of about another $150,000 for a total of $438,500.
So conservatively you could run a D1 team for about $500,000 per year.
What amount of an endowment would a school need to gain this amount of interest per year to run a team. $10,000,000 at 5% gain per year is about what you would need. To fully fund 120 D1 teams you would need 1 billion 200 million dollars. Where are you Bill Gates? It is not likely that the wrestling community could raise this amount of money. For comparison it would take 120 million people donating $10 each.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Brandon Brissette added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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I've read all the posts about styles and change, but most of that isn't the issue. You don't want to leave your main fan and participant base which is HS and Jr High folkstyle. It's hard to make a massive change at that level and most places have your average coach who is maybe proficiant at best with teaching folkstlye. If we step away from folkstyle we stand to lose a lot of support and potentially a lot of high school programs, don't rock that boat. Also being tied into Olympic Sport doesn't nessasarly bring more fans here in the US. Plus as excitment goes we've all seen the majority of the high level matches in the olymics play out the same as college. Close, hard fought, stratigic matches with out that much scoring. Look at Cael's gold medal match, or Rulon's, or many of the other places. Low scoring, low action, that's just a part of the sport. You really have to know it to love it. Baseball is the same. Many a boring minutes but it's in knowing the little things that make it truly intertaining.
I don't know the solution, but bring people to the seats is BIG. Play up to the fans you do have. If you ever seen a home match at Heidelberg it's always shoulder to shoulder in the stands. And look at what tOSU has been doing to build attendance. Just keep Promoting, keep playing up the parts that are exciting, and pass out knowledge. Never underestimate the power of inviting students, and making anouncments for every match. (Even a spot light and a few glow sticks can bring em in <smiling> give them something to do and cheer for) You want to know the biggest thing I think could still save us. The Dual. That should become more of the focus. It's shorter, more intense for the masses. We need Sectional, District and Stale level duals. And qualifying dual meets in College. Those bring fans and we've all seen it. They reach out to more of the common public. I do feel more anxiety for the D1 and D2 teams, at NAIA and D3 levels we bring in money just by having teams. The college needs 30 more butts in the seats, add a popular sport, an average of 26,000 per student for the year at the private school, more than makes up for the per athlete cost of playing for the school. The others have to grow fan bases and small buisness skills. No one will axe a sport if it's that popular and can contribute financially. Besides winning so much the Big 10 and Big 12 have the best fan bases, just look at the numbers for average attendance on the InterMat, that's what really makes them safe. No university will cut out an active fan base (they spend and donate money and make the college look good)
I hope everyone on this site helps support the save ASU movement in any way they can. Our sport has to much and builds to much Character to be snuffed out!
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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This discussion could go on forever and we will never all agree on what should be done. I just wonder why these schools never reduce budgets before just cutting sports. For example, at ASU, Dennis Erickson is paid $825,000 a year, over and above his base salary, for wearing ASU athletic department approved attire at all practices, games, and speaking engagments and agreeing not to enter into an agreement to wear other attire. As Mr. Ramsey points out, it would take around $500,000 dollars to fully fund a program. Why can't Dennis Erickson make $325,000 extra a year for wearing ASU shirts to practice instead of his old ratty Miami shirt. That's right, that would mean that he would only make $1.3 million a year instead of $1.8.
And that gentleman, is the real problem.
I still think that Arthur Martori will have something to say about all this in the long run.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Joe Boardwine added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Brandon makes some very good points.
This is a complicated issue. And for the average coach, some of these factors are beyond your control. You are somewhat limited in what you can do to make a difference. However, one thing everyone can do is pay attention to attendance and support for their program.
IMO, as Head Coach, one of the most important things to look for as you are developing your program is interest in your program.
Do people come to watch what you do? How about students? Does the AD, Principal or Superintendent ever come? Have you ever invited them directly? Are they included in your regular newsletter? Do the parents show up? Community members? Any important business people ever come? Do they know about your program - the value of wrestling – and when and where the matches are?
If these people do attend - that means they care enough to take time out of their day for your team. And if enough people care about your program - it will be a lot harder to eliminate or marginalize. I think often, as a sport we almost take pride in the fact that no one really understands what we do. Like a badge of honor – we explain a lack of interest by rationalizing that the sport is just too tough for the average person to be interested in or to want to come watch – or to get a full team on the mats. I know I used to think more this way as a wrestler and early on as rookie coach. “Yeah no one comes – they all love basketball - but who cares – we don’t need them anyway.” That type of thinking.
The importance of securing the support of the student body and the administration cannot be ignored. Obviously people like Gable did a great job of this. Other, more "human" coaches the average person can relate to also pay close attention to this and do everything they can do get "butts in the seats." Out in the Lehigh Valley in Pennsylvania, Easton HS always has a great crowd - just for single dual meets. It is a community event. Parents come. Students come. Business people show up. Old timers from the city come – and they don't have a kid in the program anymore - just to see how the guys look this year.
Someone may have other examples - but to me, Eric Toukonen always gets great crowds at his dual meets at Claymont HS. Year in and year out - he finds a way to make sure the sport remains an important part of that community. That's one example.
I think at the college level, sometimes the focus is really on everything else except marketing the program and securing support from the student body and administration. When I competed at Kent State, when I told people I was on the wrestling team - it was common to get a reaction like "Oh yeah? That's cool. So is that like varsity where you go against other colleges? Or is it rec program?" They really had no idea we had home matches. In that regard, things are changing at KSU in that area a lot now - as evidenced by the fine turnout vs. OSU this year.
Let’s compare our sport to football – a sport with enormous support and on the right track. Think about all the high school and college football games that people go to and no one even watches the game that closely. But they are there nonetheless. Sure they want to see some sports action. But its also about the socializing, halftime, the band, the food, etc. They are there because it is an event - the place to be.
I’ve gotten long-winded. But I just think the sport is really in trouble in D I and possibly beyond without change.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Joe is right on and Brandon made some great points as well.
But I will add this to what Joe said...
Yes, much of the promoting needs to be done locally, and surely that is the case with smaller programs in high school, middle school, and youth. However, especially for the bigger stages, the people who run our sport - whether that is USA Wrestling, the NFHS, the NCAA, or whoever - need to create opportunities where local people can promote our sport.
Football has... NFL (major), NCAA (major), HS (#1 HS sport)
Basketball has... NBA (major), NCAA (major), HS (#2 HS sport)
Baseball has... MLB (major), NCAA (average), HS (major)
Wrestling has... Nothing, NCAA (minor), HS (major)
There is a huge difference and it must be changed if we want to progress. For some odd reason many in our sport are okay with keeping wrestling as a non-mass-media promoted sport in a mass-media culture, and that just doesn't work. It's a fact. Look at a lot of the other Olympic sports... can you name ANY Olympians in the non-major sports? No? Exactly my point.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Steve Lester added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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It's nice to read top notch commentary (compared to other forums) on this issue.
1. Would an elimination of folkstyle, and it's replacement by free and/or greco, change youth participation at the grass roots level? Increase or decrease?
2. Are all agreed that the reduction of Division 1 college wrestling programs is directly (essentially SOLELY) attributable to Title 9?
3. Would a complete elimination of "formal" college wrestling competition change the high school landscape? How?
4. Is it correct to say that youth, middle school, and high school wrestling is as healthy as ever?
I have always felt that newspaper and TV advertising of the sport of wrestling as being beneficial for today's youth should happen, especially if they could generate a modicum of controversy (re:discussion). Youth programs should be advertised (and not just on dedicated websites).
If somehow a Lebron James-type name could be associated with a camp or ongoing training location, that could play dividends. Sure it would be better if it was a wrestling name, but were are talking about enticing participants (and parents) who probably don't even know that youth programs exist.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Jimmy is a regular kid. He's been introduced to a lot of sports by his father and really enjoys wrestling and basketball. He is a good athlete and would be good at either sport. The problem is that they are both in the winter so their seasons overlap.
Jimmy wakes up in the morning and turns on SportsCenter to see the highlights of last night's Cavs playoff game from last night. Obviously being a kid growing up in Cleveland, Jimmy thinks LeBron is the man.
Jimmy gets to school and his buddy is reading the latest issue of Sports Illustrated and he let's Jimmy borrow it. Jimmy reads up on all of the latest happenings in the NBA, including the probable trade of former MVP Tracy McGrady. He reads about the latest transactions with college basketball - what coaches are moving, which of the best players are going into the draft. He also reads about how an eigth-grader already verbally committed to the University of Kentucky for basketball.
Jimmy has his iPod on and his favorite rap artist is singing about being a "baller."
Jimmy has to read a biography for English class. It can be about anyone. He goes to the library to find a book. Since he's a big-time sports fan, he looks in the sports section. There he finds a few books about the greatest basketball player of all-time, Michael Jordan.
After school is done, Jimmy goes to hang out with his friends. They hang out in the lot at the school or the local park, where they play pick-up games of basketball. There is no charge to play and no parents are needed to drive them around or oversee them. They just show up and have fun.
Jimmy goes home and decides to watch a bit of television before dinner. He turns on his favorite channel, ESPN, and the program is Jim Rome's "Rome is Burning." With the NBA's conference semifinals going on - namely the Cavs versus the Celtics, today's guests include legendary Celtics' star Larry Bird to talk about the Celtics chances against the Cavs and beyond, and the much-maligned Knicks coach Isaiah Thomas to tell his side of the story on what has happened in New York.
After dinner, Jimmy and his father watch the next playoff game between the Cavs and the Celtics. The Cavs win and Jimmy and his dad are both pumped.
Jimmy's dad asks him which sport he wants to do, basketball or wrestling. What do you think Jimmy said?
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