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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Quote from Dan Cosimi's post:
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"Joe is right on and Brandon made some great points as well.
But I will add this to what Joe said...
Yes, much of the promoting needs to be done locally, and surely that is the case with smaller programs in high school, middle school, and youth. However, especially for the bigger stages, the people who run our sport - whether that is USA Wrestling, the NFHS, the NCAA, or whoever - need to create opportunities where local people can promote our sport.
Football has... NFL (major), NCAA (major), HS (#1 HS sport)
Basketball has... NBA (major), NCAA (major), HS (#2 HS sport)
Baseball has... MLB (major), NCAA (average), HS (major)
Wrestling has... Nothing, NCAA (minor), HS (major)
There is a huge difference and it must be changed if we want to progress. For some odd reason many in our sport are okay with keeping wrestling as a non-mass-media promoted sport in a mass-media culture, and that just doesn't work. It's a fact. Look at a lot of the other Olympic sports... can you name ANY Olympians in the non-major sports? No? Exactly my point."
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Dan:
I know I could name many Olympians in non-major sports, swimming, gymnastics, ice skating, track & field, etc. I also believe that there are many others just like me, because we are interested in the athletes and know how hard they work to get to that level. Brandon makes a great point though that the major sports have made themselves social events and the place everyone wants to be. That can be done in wrestling, but it is much harder for wrestling as the "powers to be" do not want their money makers to be affected. Iowa, Iowa State, Minnesota and Oklahoma State have all been very successful in doing so and Ohio State, Missouri, Central Michigan and Kent State have been making good efforts in the last few years. Above all winning teams do as much as anything to improve fan base.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Steve Lester added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Quote from Dan Cosimi's post:
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"Jimmy's dad asks him which sport he wants to do, basketball or wrestling. What do you think Jimmy said?"
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That converstation took place in my home. It did with my older boy when he was a youth and he opted for basketball, despite my entreaties. I still say some ads touting youth wrestling should be running in the Call and Post, Sun Papers, and PD. I'd write off the Scene and that other free rag. They probably wouldn't accept them.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Funny thing about the basketball vs wrestling decision was that situation probably happens in more households than one would think. I started wrestling in 7th grade because I was cut from the basketball team. Best "failure" I ever achieved. I was fortunate because my dad wrestled in high school. When my twin brother and I did not make the basketball team, he suggested we try our hand at wrestling. Once we tried it, we were hooked. However, not everyone has a dad who wrestled when he was younger to encourage participation in our sport. Having wrestled against Claymont back when I was in high school, I can give witness to the strong support they have from their community. You knew if you were going to their house it was going to be a battle...and it was fun. Shoot, they usually brought as many to your house as you did. Now, they have the team posters up advertising their schedule and they give them out to local businesses. That is what we should be doing for ALL our programs at the lower level. We may never be the winter sport the majority of American boys' pick first, but not everyone will make the basketball team and we need to market ourselves to them as well (via team posters in school and in town and coaches talking to them individually about trying our sport).
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Stu Herman added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Guys simply tossing blame at Title IX is short sighted. Its getting borderline ridiculous when anything bad happens to the sport of wrestling and Title IX is blamed. Simply screaming at the heavens about your dislike of Title IX is serving no one, and some steps can be taken to turn all this wonderful enthusiasm into a constructive force that will actually be productive.
1) Blame the athletic directors. THEY don't HAVE TO CUT SPORTS! The have 3 options of compliance.
First
, they can come into proportionality with participant to student ratios. This is the "quota prong" (thought is been consistantly found as not implying a quota) and is used by NEARLY ZERO SCHOOLS to come into Title IX compliance. The
second
, is they can show a history of continuous improvement in adding sports for the underrepresented gender and this is relatively easy to reach. By adding one sport for women every 10 years or so it can conceivably constituted a trend. The
third
is that they can meet the interests or needs of the student body. They can do this by email out a survey to the students and seeing if they get a SIGNIFICANT response from females with the aptitude to add a particular sport. The second and third prong are almost exclusively used by schools to come into compliance.
2) And this is the biggie, blame FOOTBALL!!!!!! Arizona state was already in Title IX compliance and even had a female wrestler on the team. It was a budgetary concern, and football swallows the budget. If we could combine the intensity of women's advocates and the wrestling community the voice would be unheard of. The arms race of collegiate athletics is driving the small, non-revenue producing sports out.
3) Support women's wrestling!!! Having a counter-balancing sport on the gender ledger will make wrestling move from the front of the line to the back when cuts are being made. Its really starting to take off at the collegiate level.
While Title IX may have had an impact 20 years ago, it is being used more as a scapegoat now than the actual cause.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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....sure its Title IX, the dropping of mens non-revenue sports incl wrestling started after 1972 when Title IX became part of the law. ------Or maybe to phrase it better,
it is
the Unintended Consequences
of Title IX.
....i have always said King Football was a big part of the problem, 85 fulls in Div I ? And the NFL gets by with only 53 on a squad--- crazy.
....college women's wrestling ?? wouldnt draw flies in fans or participants, thats fact.
....USA Wrestling has No say in college, high school or youth wrestling in America.
And its best that they don't, too.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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I agree w/ Bob that Title IX is being felt by wrestling even today. Do feel that act of legislation is evil? No. It is good that we want to open doors of greater opportunity for women.
I once listened to a lecture by a professor about management styles. He told the class to change one thing about their appearance. Nearly 80% of the class removed something from their person in order to comply with this request. In doing so, we proved the point he was to get at. It is in our nature to solve problems by "tightening our belt" or trimming the fat. We instintively think negatively in changing situations and do what is the easiest...remove the "unnecessary." We are seeing this today. Bugetary problems? Get out the axe. I am curious to know what alternative solutions they came up with. Have football games only during the early daylight to save on power bills (if not already done), provide work/study to the agricultural arts programs to maintain their field vice contracting it out, utilize the art program for the field design vice hiring someone to do it, requiring the ASU wrestling schedule be conducted on the west coast until the budget allows for further travel (not ideal but better than not wrestling at all), make the wrestlers set up and break down the mats themselves (like back in high school). These are simple ideas...most of which would not save a ton of money, but my point it I wonder if things like this were even considered or if they went to what was easiest...the axe.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Mike,
....i first have to point out that the Arizona St AD says something contrary to what Stu Herman posted that colleges
don't use Prong One, she says that is exactly what they did use, Prong One
....Stu posted: "First, they can come into proportionality with participant to student ratios. This is the "quota prong" (thought is been consistantly found as not implying a quota) and is used by NEARLY ZERO SCHOOLS to come into Title IX compliance." ---- on the InterMat interview Arizona St AD Love says, "“
We didn’t explore prong two or prong three,
but rather the gender balance of your program.”
....Title IX as part of that Federal Law/Act that i cant recall the title of, Title IX was needed and just.
Here's is a bombshell i just read in the Ohio St U Alumni magazine: until 1972 Ohio States great TBDBITL Band was restricted to males only !! who knew that injustice existed ?? There are now 59 female members.
....If King Football is getting 85 fulls, how many are left for the remainder of the male athlete population ???? simple math.
....there is only so much $$ to go around, you and i have limited dollars, so does Arizona St--- the Unintended Consequences of Title IX and King Football are killing male non-revenue sports.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Bob,
The issue with King Football is it can be your blessing or it can be your curse. For Ohio State, it is a blessing right now. Look at how much that program brings in each year (especially when they make a large BCS game). Now I know they also suck up a large portion, but that sport is the real revenue generator for the Buckeyes. In addition to the football bringing in money by way of the bowl games it qualifies for, their success also encourages boosters to be more free with their giving. As long as football is America's favorite college sport, nothing will touch the number of scholarships awarded to each university's football program. My question stems from believing this to be true and wondering what other options were explored to either cut costs (not programs) or generate more funds given that the number of football scholarships are fixed and the football programs will always be well fed (literally and financially).
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Quote from Steve Lester's post:
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"It's nice to read top notch commentary (compared to other forums) on this issue.
1. Would an elimination of folkstyle, and it's replacement by free and/or greco, change youth participation at the grass roots level? Increase or decrease?
2. Are all agreed that the reduction of Division 1 college wrestling programs is directly (essentially SOLELY) attributable to Title 9?
3. Would a complete elimination of "formal" college wrestling competition change the high school landscape? How?
4. Is it correct to say that youth, middle school, and high school wrestling is as healthy as ever?
I have always felt that newspaper and TV advertising of the sport of wrestling as being beneficial for today's youth should happen, especially if they could generate a modicum of controversy (re:discussion). Youth programs should be advertised (and not just on dedicated websites).
If somehow a Lebron James-type name could be associated with a camp or ongoing training location, that could play dividends. Sure it would be better if it was a wrestling name, but were are talking about enticing participants (and parents) who probably don't even know that youth programs exist."
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1) Don't know. Generally speaking, free and greco are more enjoyable than folk. But I agree with DC, Brandon, Bob Preusse, Joe Boardwine, etc...that the style is not why college programs are being dropped.
2) Yes. I think that Title 9, specifically how compliance is determined via proportionality, has done the most damage. The second biggest problem is football and the number of scholarships it sucks up.
3) Good question. Don't know. But as long as school systems fund wrestling, high schools should be ok.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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"As long as football is America's favorite college sport, nothing will touch the number of scholarships awarded to each university's football program."
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Mike,
we all know Ohio St and other bigtime football programs bring in mega-bucks, nothing to debate there, we all know that. (and many college fotball programs lose money according to Sports illustrated.)
as long as 85 fulls come out of the male half of the Div I college athete population, not much is left for the remainder of mens non-revenue sports.
I've raise this point for years and no one has ever answered me why the NFL can get along with 53 man squads yet Div I college needs 85 Fulls ???
and WHY does every football player have to get a Full ???
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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""As long as football is America's favorite college sport, nothing will touch the number of scholarships awarded to each university's football program."
-----------------------------------
Mike,
we all know Ohio St and other bigtime football programs bring in mega-bucks, nothing to debate there, we all know that. (and many college fotball programs lose money according to Sports illustrated.)
as long as 85 fulls come out of the male half of the Div I college athete population, not much is left for the remainder of mens non-revenue sports.
I've raise this point for years and no one has ever answered me why the NFL can get along with 53 man squads yet Div I college needs 85 Fulls ???
and WHY does every football player have to get a Full ???
"
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Hmmm, I was unaware 85 football players received full rides. I guess WOW doesn't quite cover it. I've never really followed football recruiting so I was ignorant to how freely the money flows in that sport. I was thinking football coaches recruited like wrestling coaches did. Offer a quality athlete a partial scholarship so you have more to go around.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Mike,
i am glad u admitted you didnt quite understand the magnitude of football's effect, i have been preaching this for many years.
King Football has an embarrassment of riches and they know it--- every year i read how Ohio St awards a couple FULL football scholarships to walk-ons --- because every year a couple Ohio St players leave unexpectedly, maybe flunk out, transfer, quit, whatever and the Buckeye football coaches are left with a couple xtra Fulls they don't know what to do with.
i'm blaming some of the demise of mens non-revenue sports on King Football and some on the Unintended Consequences of Title IX
. The fedral law as enacted in 1972 may have been righteous and needed and overdue,
but the interpretation and unintended consequences are mens sports killers.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
J.P. Barner added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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You folks appreciate the fact that 'King Football' funds all other sports (except b-ball), right? And that wrestling wouldn't exist at schools like OSU without the funds from football? And that facility improvements, like the weight room in the WHAC also benefit teams, including wrestling, other than football? And that having a nationally prominent football team results in a greater number of alumni contributions across all areas of the OSU community, academic and athletic?
Sorry, but I feel the berating of 'King Football' is a little misguided. Unfortunately, I don't believe any other school generates the $$ from their football program that OSU does. But OSU also supports more different sports than any other university (except Harvard, I think).
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Mike Taylor added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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Quote from J.P. Barner's post:
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"You folks appreciate the fact that 'King Football' funds all other sports (except b-ball), right? And that wrestling wouldn't exist at schools like OSU without the funds from football? And that facility improvements, like the weight room in the WHAC also benefit teams, including wrestling, other than football? And that having a nationally prominent football team results in a greater number of alumni contributions across all areas of the OSU community, academic and athletic?
Sorry, but I feel the berating of 'King Football' is a little misguided. Unfortunately, I don't believe any other school generates the $$ from their football program that OSU does. But OSU also supports more different sports than any other university (except Harvard, I think)."
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See my earlier post. I'm not necessarily berating it. I said it can be a blessing or a curse. While the Buckeyes are enjoying the fruits of the football team's success, I highly doubt Stanford's football team is bringing in the same kind of bucks. That means with the same emphasis placed on football but much less money something is going to have to give (or leave). While football is a large revenue generating sport, it is also an expensive sport to maintain. If they aren't generating a large surplus like the nation's elite programs, the wrestling programs at those universities are in danger. That is where we are going with this.
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Discussion Topic: Arizona State Drops Wrestling
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 15, 2008
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JP,
we all get it that Ohio States football team funds the athletic dept, we all know that. And we all love Ohio st football i am sure.
I've personally
attended games every year starting in 1961
except for 3 years in the Army--- so u don't need to convince me--- i've proved my loyalty sitting in rain, sleet and snow countless times in Ohio Stadium.
but it still doesnt mean they need 85 Fulls-- and what about all the Div I colleges supporting football teams that aren't of the caliber of Ohio st, Michigan, N Dame, Penn st and the Biggies, what about all the Div I teams that Sports Illustrated says LOSE $$ on football ??? They get 85 Fulls too.
i think its ridiculous when the best teams in the world, the NFL, get by with 53 man squads. And why do all the college football players riding the pine for 4 and 5 years deserve Fulls ???
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