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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"Hank, I have to respectfully disagree. The wrestler with the lead is under less pressure than the wrestler who is losing. He has far more available to him as long as he isn't gassing out and making it obvious. If he is gassing, shouldn't the losing wrestler have a chance to win? As we all know, getting into the third period with a lead does not assure victory. At least it should not. The match is 6 or 7 minutes long and you have to wrestle all of them.
Why is he "forced to make bad offensive attempts"? Why can't he make GOOD attempts or, failing that, just attempts? If he make a bad attempt, that is not the fault of the official. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. If the wrestler is making attempts (and not a leg slap or something like that), I won't look at him as stalling.
Keep in mind that there is a warning prior to any points being awarded. If you haven't been warned, use it to your advantage. If you have been warned, just be carefully aggressive.
I also disagree that college officials show more respect for the winning wrestler. Their rules are different and allow (or encourage) riding. That makes a huge difference. It has zero to do with respect. I respect all the wrestlers on my mat but I have to obey the rules and call what I see.
That being said, I am going to be very interested in seeing how this all plays out."
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Jim...While a agree that both wrestlers have to wrestle the entire six minutes, the fact of the matter is the final minute of most matches is officiated by a different standard then the first five minutes. I have seen "respected officials" call a wrestler who is leading a bout for stalling late in the match for doing things that neither wrestler was called for a few minutes earlier. The problem is consistency within the bout. If it's stalling with 20 seconds left and a lead, then it should be stalling 20 seconds in when it's 0-0...and it's just not called that way. These rules won't change that.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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Michael: While I do agree that the match is called differently at different stages of the match, I think it has reason (not saying it's right or wrong, just sayin'). I think it has to do with protection.
A score of 0-0, with 5:45 left, a wrestler has nothing to protect. Up 3-2, with :15 left, has something to protect. And for whatever reason, protecting that lead via not engaging (aka running away from an opponent) is construed as stalling.
Maybe not though.
ps: you have a PM.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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Quote from Fred Feeney's post:
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"Tony,
Referees apply rules as written by the rules committee...which is made up of....coaches.
We are out there...to keep things on a level playing field.
By increasing stalling call penalties...makes me think that coaches will now have their wrestlers, wrestle int he middle of the mat...and not play the edge.
How often do see wrestlers playing the edge? That's pretty darn exciting isn't it?"
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Well they apply rules as they interpret them. Each ref can interpret each situation differently and therefore a particular ref can play a very large roll in a match based on their interpretation. Something as abstract as stalling leads to many different interpretations, and thus will lead to inconsistency in calls between refs. I don’t like that we are giving refs more situations to try and apply their interpretation of the rules to affect the outcome of matches.
Like I said go to freestyle and we can eliminate a lot of the issues with stalling and going out of bounds.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"Like I said go to freestyle and we can eliminate a lot of the issues with stalling and going out of bounds."
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...and then you get a ball grab at end of scoreless periods where one person completely staled and those awesome 1-1 periods that goes to person who scored last which is, IMO, the stupidest rule ever.
For my $, no thanks. I'll stick with folkstyle. Now give me freestyle rules from mid 80's and yes, I'd make the switch in a heartbeat.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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Quote from Brady Hiatt's post:
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"
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"Like I said go to freestyle and we can eliminate a lot of the issues with stalling and going out of bounds."
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...and then you get a ball grab at end of scoreless periods where one person completely staled and those awesome 1-1 periods that goes to person who scored last which is, IMO, the stupidest rule ever.
For my $, no thanks. I'll stick with folkstyle. Now give me freestyle rules from mid 80's and yes, I'd make the switch in a heartbeat."
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I said in my initial recommendation that it would require some minor tweaks such as overtime. How is a 1-1 period any worst that a 1-0 match that had one guy on top for 4 minutes doing nothing but riding? Or how about a 2-1 match that was won on a stalling call? Neither of those situations are any better for the sport.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"How is a 1-1 period any worst that a 1-0 match that had one guy on top for 4 minutes doing nothing but riding?"
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1-1 = a tie. 1-0 isn't and shows one was superior in at least one area. Are they equally boring/exciting -- depends on the viewer as "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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"A score of 0-0, with 5:45 left, a wrestler has nothing to protect. Up 3-2, with :15 left, has something to protect."
This is what I tell people all the time.
Should the wrestler who is winning be allowed to camp on a one point lead?
Shouldn't the wrestler who is losing, in this case, be allowed to try to escape or reverse his opponent? What do you think his coach would say?
I have long maintained that 20 coaches in a room could not agree about stalling either. It is stalling when it is the other guy but "my guy wasn't stalling".
I often wondered what it might be like if the stalling rules were simply taken out of the rule book? Think it would make for good match? I would doubt it but give it a try.
Lastly, as an official, I REALLY don't care who wins a match. Safe and fair is what I am after. If the boys wrestle aggressively, it completely keeps me out of the picture and I like that.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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Quote from Jim Behrens's post:
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"...Lastly, as an official, I REALLY don't care who wins a match..."
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I believe you when you say that, but I have seen many, many respected officials who have influenced bouts because of who is wrestling or who is sitting in the chair. Officials are people and they have built-in bias toward some wrestlers, coaches and programs and against from others.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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The end of match stalling call on the wrestler in the lead has always been interesting. Is there any other sport where a person/team gets punished for trying to protect a lead? I can't think of one, can anyone help me find one?
Every other sport understands that you earned that lead during the entirety of the match, but in wrestling that isn't enough. So much so that a referee can actually give the match to your opponent because you scored early and didn't late. It really is nuts when you think about it.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"The end of match stalling call on the wrestler in the lead has always been interesting. Is there any other sport where a person/team gets punished for trying to protect a lead? I can't think of one, can anyone help me find one?
Every other sport understands that you earned that lead during the entirety of the match, but in wrestling that isn't enough. So much so that a referee can actually give the match to your opponent because you scored early and didn't late. It really is nuts when you think about it."
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Take your last paragraph and apply it to a 1-1 period in freestyle. Every other sport understands that's a tie.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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Atleast you had to make an attempt to win in order to score last. If you win by stalling you just have to make the other guy look bad. We can go back and forth all day on this. I will just say this the rest of the world does freestyle we don't. Why?
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Jim Behrens added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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"Is there any other sport where a person/team gets punished for trying to protect a lead? I can't think of one, can anyone help me find one?"
Maybe not as direct as what you mean but, is holding more likely to occur early or late in a football game?
In a basketball game, are personal fouls more likely to occur early or late in a game?
It comes down to "protecting" a lead as was pointed out.
"So much so that a referee can actually give the match to your opponent because you scored early and didn't late. It really is nuts when you think about it."
If you really want a sport that make you even more nuts, look at baseball.
The umpire doesn't like the way a batter looks at him, the next pitch will be a strike, regardless of where it is.
The pitcher glares at the ump and the strike zone is 6" narrower.
OTOH, wasn't it Greg Maddux who had the benefit of 3" on either side of the plate with every NL umpire?
Every sport has "issues".
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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Quote from Tony Bradberry's post:
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"Atleast you had to make an attempt to win in order to score last. If you win by stalling you just have to make the other guy look bad. We can go back and forth all day on this. I will just say this the rest of the world does freestyle we don't. Why?"
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Tony, I get what you're saying about the stalling. But the tie is just brutal. You take me down, I take you down so I win? Stupid. Imagine that in football, soccer, baseball, b-ball, etc. Just stupid rule. Watch the period between R.Jordan when he takes one from Sanderson. He did NOTHING but won because of a stupid ball grab. That's ugly.
Anyway, I'm not big on "well they do it so we should" type guy. The rest of the world does many things we don't. Many countries also have their own native form of wrestling. It is my belief that given the current rules, the better wrestler wins more often in folkstyle than they do in freestyle. We were very competitive in the 70's, 80's, and 90's in freestyle but less so now? What's changed? The answer isn't how stalling is called in folk.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Fred Feeney added to this discussion on September 15, 2011
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The fact of the matter is....coaches are going to have to coach their wrestlers to wrestle in the middle, and wrestlers are going to have to wrestle in the middle. The edge is no longer a safe haven.
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Discussion Topic: New stalling/fleeing rules in college
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on September 16, 2011
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I just think your giving refs way to much power to control the outcome of matches.
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