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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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M-Rod: Agree completely. Number of titles doesn't always reflect greatness. The Fried example is perfect. Best Ohio competitor until recently.
The problem is that there are many great wrestlers from the past whom I've never seen compete in college. I used Baumgartner to represent 285 because of all his great post-collegiate accomplishments. How good was he as a senior? I don't really know. I've only seen grainy footage of Kemp. Never saw Uetake.
If my list were limited to the last twenty years, it would be simpler.
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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Yeah, we're all biased toward our era and what we've actually wintnessed. Uetake and even Kemp make it for be based on reputation and stats (Wolrd Level). Growing up, Smith was the end all be all. He did what Bourrghs did, but more dominant and a year or so ahead of him. Bourrghs' International success came just after his senior season, Smith began while still at OSU. That's why he gets the nod for me. Also, these guys (the ones I've watched: Bourrghs, Smith and Sanderson) were true innovators. Smith with his low level attacks (and his phenomenal top work and defence on the International circuit), Sanderson for his ankle pick, scoring and movement for a big man and Bourroughs for his elevation of the double leg to an art form.
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Freddy Carr added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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A discussion that could be just as or more interesting:
Who was the best wrestler....for one season? In other words, which wrestler had the most dominating season and in which year? Things to consider would be who he beat and how he beat them.
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Ben Golden added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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If Burroughs gets credited for making the double leg an artform, I think Taylor has to be credited with the same for rolling around the mat scoring back points. No one moves on the mat as comfortably and fluidly and lucratively as Taylor. Dake even acknowledged this excellence in his post-finals press conference, saying he made a point to avoid rolling around on the mat because David is so good at that.
EDIT: I think Ben Askren deserves credit here too. He and Taylor and are both very unique in their comfort rolling around the mat. With that said, they are very different from each other. I think Askren is probably a lot more easy to emulate than Taylor. His funk was different, but he was systematic about it. I feel like "scrambling" has increased a lot since Askren's run. Really to the point that some of the techniques are no longer considered scrambles--they are positions that are commonly contested. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this. Taylor's game, though... I think he just thinks with his body at such a quick rate that not many people will have the ability to emulate him. Just my thoughts.
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Last edited by Ben Golden on March 27, 2013; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Joe Johnson added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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Unfortunately, I am too young to have seen Gable, but I don't know how he can be left out of the top 5(of anything). I guess it's been too long? Gable had 13 falls at the NCAA championships w/o wrestling his freshman year(due to NCAA rules). Just look at his results in college through this link. Unreal.
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/dangablestore/gablerecords.pdf
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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1. Patrick Campbell
Distant 2. Rex Holman
But I digress...
What I really love and respect about Dake is moving up a weight class to be challenged. Face the Hodge winner from a year ago 3 times and beat him all 3. David Taylor could easily be in this conversation and the fact is, Dake owns him.
I actually agree with MRod on the John Smith thought.
I would purpose:
1. Sanderson/Dake Not sure they can be separated. No way to wrestle them off. Different weights, styles, etc...but plain and simle: DOMINATING!
3. John Smith (I don't actually think Pat Smith, as a 4 timer is high in the conversation...forgive me).
4. Hasselrig: I love this story and his athletic prowess may be unmatched.
5. I still have a soft spot for Dan Gable. I'm probaly just a homer here...but I think he belongs.
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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Hank quote: "Bruce Baumgartner--Won one NCAA title while competing for Indiana State (whose other best known wrestler is probably Jack Effner) then moved onto an international career where he finished top three in the world for 13 out of 14 seasons including a medal in four Olympics."
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we're geting some really good replies here with good explanations too. Hank HOWEVER i must chastise him as he's the only one who hedged on the rules: not supposed to consider anything post-college (as he did above).
no way Baumgartner comes close to making it based on college. Fact is Ohioan hvwt Greg Wojechowski from U of Toledo, a 3X finalist, did more in college than Baumgartner-- and other hvwts Haselrig, Mocco & Tommy Rowlands definitely did more too. Then theres 3xer hvwt champ Jimmy Jackson of Okla St and the very athletic as well as a big guy Stephen Neal of Bakersfield. Lots of hvwts did more than Baumgartner in college.
so the normlly very articulate well-mannered Hank will sit in the corner for the next hour to think about his misdeeds. ...s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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Bob...you should know by now, Hank makes up his own rules ;-)
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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Quote from Patrick Campbell's post:
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"Bob...you should know by now, Hank makes up his own rules ;-)"
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yes Patrick, and that worries me, after all RULE-BREAKERS can be dangerous,
examples: Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Martin Luther King, Mahatma Ghandi, Rosa Parks, Mother Theresa, Albert Einstein, Nelson Mandella, General George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Walt Disney, Johann Guttenburg, Ghengas Khan, Alexander The Great, Socrates, Gallileo, Sir Isaac Newton, Beethoven, Mozart, Jonas Salk ----
u get my point, once these "rule-breakers" take hold, no telling what might happen?? big changes can be made, very dangerous. ....s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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WHOOAAAA.... While Hank is pretty good with corned beef. He didn't exactly invent corned beef. Not quite ready to put him in the Bill Gates boat just yet. ;-)
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Leo Zimmer added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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If I were going to list a Top 5 it would include most of the names already mentioned. But for conversation, let me throw a couple of 3xer's that haven't been mentioned....
Dan Hodge- Each of his finals victories came by fall
Greg Jones- surrendered just 10 takedowns in his 4 year career
Granted these guys are probably not Top 5 All Time, but they are in the same category as guys like Abas, McIlravy and Brands.
Having said that...If you want to boil it down to one guy? It has to be Sanderson, Dake or Pat Smith... The goal is to win an NCAA championship. Only 3 guys of in history have done that 4x's.
That means every other wrestler that was eligible to compete for a title 4 times failed to achieve their goal at least once. If this were a discussion about the best parachute packer, I'm certain that one time failure would exclude you from the inclusion on the "Greatest Ever" list.
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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Quote from Leo Zimmer's post:
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"...If this were a discussion about the best parachute packer, I'm certain that one time failure would exclude you from the inclusion on the "Greatest Ever" list."
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Now that's funny!
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Roe Fox added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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Michael's point is well taken. Is this for a career or as Freddy suggested is this for a particular point in time of one's career?
Was somebody so dominent and technically profficient that a season or two transcended what anyone else has ever done?
I would have a hard time picking one. Recently Burroughs. Ruth. Taylor (last year). Logan this year. Askren. Herbert his senior year.
There are so many from the more distant past.
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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Quote from Leo Zimmer's post:
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"If this were a discussion about the best parachute packer, I'm certain that one time failure would exclude you from the inclusion on the "Greatest Ever" list."
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good picks Greg Jones --and Dan Hodge who im sure makes top 5, these old timers love Hodge.
re parachutes, as a former jumper i can tell you that "riggers" as they are called in the army-- riggers who assemble the parachutes-- must jump themselves with randomly selected parachutes that theyve assembled. So they have incentive, all of them to be perfect.
just talked to John Azevedo on ph, from Calif, re Ironman, i asked Azevedo --who btw was on the famed 1980 Olympic team that prez carter wouldnt let compete-- Azevedo i asked WHO from his era was top dog???
he said GENE MILLS-- btw Jay Hammonds stats indicate the 3 greatest pinners of all time: Gene Mills, Wade Schalles, Dan Gable. imo pinners get xtra points in any poll. ...s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Chris Thomas added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
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Dan would turn Dake all type of ways!!
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