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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 8, 2008
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Quote from Ben Roerig's post:
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"I'm sure I'll be lambasted and told it's "a tough sport," but being tough and taking cheap shots are two different things."
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I don't think anyone will disagree with you there. I'm all for good physical wrestling, but the rules are in place for a reason. I believe in going right up to the edge of being illegal, but not crossing that line. A few of the Iowa wrestlers seem to have trouble stopping at that line. So many of them seem to do it, it makes you wonder if it's by design. Like the point they may give up is worth getting in the cheap shot, even just for the sake of intimidation.
While I don't condone breaking the rules as a strategy, I do think that many wrestlers will do what the official let's them do. It's the guy in the stripe's job to control the match with regard to the wrestler's safety.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Ben Roerig added to this discussion on January 8, 2008
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One must look no further than the Iowa bench when wondering where Iowa's cheap shot persona has come from. Just watch one of Tom Brands's matches on Youtube and you'll see that he was certainly an aggressive in your face wrestler, who sometimes crossed the line. Or how about the infamous Dan Gable arm sign last year toward the Iowa State bench. The "Iowa Style" that many of Brand's current wrestlers are reverting back to is very conducive to bordering on the line of illegal at times. I personally think it's an exciting style, when it's contained within rules.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 10, 2008
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I am going to start another thread as I don't think it is fair to address it under an Iowa v OSU thread. But, one of the underlying themes that is not directly being addressed is the win at all costs mentality. This mentality also encompasses that your opponent is your enemy ideology.
There is no doubt that Iowa has an us v them mentality, but so do a lot of other schools, sports teams, individuals, nations, etc.
Sports has evolved into what it is due to human nature and the desire to win.
Mike-
You know better. Everything is by designation and enhanced through encouragement. I have only been witness to college wrestling since the late 80s with an eye for any kind of detail. The first time that I saw a head shove out of bounds was by a Brands brother. It would probably have been a match for 3rd or 4th at the NCAA tournament in Tom's freshman year against Jim Martin of PSU. I would call him an innovator for such a tactic, however, it is also disrespectful. It is a means of getting into your opponent's head. It acts as a means for getting your opponent to be emotional and lose sight of executing technique. In doing so, he has effectively rattled his opponent.
Now that he is coaching, you can expect to see his direct influence on his wrestlers. So,
anything
that he has done to win a match can be seen in the actions of his wrestlers. That should make some things apparent.
If you are coaching against him, it is your duty to prepare your wrestler for that mentality and pace otherwise you are sending your lambs to the slaughter. College wrestling is tough and I had the opportunity to wrestle in Carver Hawkeye arena thrice. As my dad said,"it was like being a Roman thrown to the Lions." Initially, I was not ready for that dynamic; third time was enemy action. I remember the match in Carver-Hawkeye my senior year as one of the smartest, gutsiest matches I ever wrestled.
Once is happenstance, Twice is coincidence, Third time is enemy action.
Rex Holman
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on January 10, 2008
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Brian Nicola added to this discussion on January 10, 2008
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Rex-
Did you beat Joel Sharret in the dual?
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Also, I am a pretty big Dan Gable fan. I don't dislike the Brands, but if I had to pick my favorite Hawk, it would probably be one of the Steiners or Brad Penrith.
The Brands are cheap shot artists, but it never really bothered me. Looking back, it probably should have more. At least they could wrestle. I really hate poor wrestlers that use that as their only recourse or option.
That said, I am all for the Bucks next friday. I will be at a SEED MEETING (!) for the CITs in CIncy, but my team will be there.
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Rodriguez---are you up for a sig bet for the Perry vs. Sponso match?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 10, 2008
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Rex...OK, let me start by saying that I agree with Niemann. You win. I find it almost impossible to argue with someone I admire and followed their career as much as Rex Holman. I remember my favorite thing about going to the Brunzwick tourney every year in high school was that I got to sit and watch you wrestle four times. Then you came to tOSU, and I got to spend a season watching and learning from you before my total flameout. So, this is said with the utmost respect.
That being said:
You're right, I do know better. I'm sure it's by design, and I don't really have a problem with that. If it rattles an opoonent, or even makes him prepare differently for the match, particularly an opponent as good as you were, then isn't it an effective stratigy? And if the tactics are illegal, then isn't it up to the official to control that sort of thing?
I agree that there is little honor in coaching that way, but it does seem extremely effective. Come on, if
you
struggled with it, imagine how it threw lesser wrestlers completely off their game. It seems to me that, like you said, Brands is concerned with wins and losses, period. Coaching with honor doesn't seem to enter the equasion. To each his own, I guess.
I will say this, I don't think Brands is disrespectful to the sport, and I don't think owes the sport better. He's doing what he knows, what worked for him, to the tune of three NCAA titles and Olympic Gold. How would someone who's had that level of success not pass down what worked so well for them. You mold a team in your image. I'm sure if you were the Head Coach at Iowa, you would teach them what worked for you.
Furthermore, it's what they (Iowa fans, administration and wrestlers) want. They want to be the bad boys of college wrestling. They want back that Gable swagger, and they think Tom Brands is the way to get there.
Coach Nicola...As much as it pains me to admit, if Perry comes in wrestling the way he has lately, a Sponseller win is not out of the question. And really, Perry has shown this year that he has not prepared well for some bouts. Sponseller isn't even on his radar right now (maybe a good National Duals will change that). I could see him coming in wrestling a true freshman and not taking it seriously. that could easily spell a Perry loss. However, if they both wrestle their best, it's a Perry win.
For the record, it was Tannenbuam that I said I was sure Sponseller couldn't beat.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 10, 2008
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To completely derail this thread...
Perry opens with Mack Lewnes at the National Duals. I watched Lewnes on video at Flowrestling and he is very similar to Sponseller in that he's constantly on the attack. He also has very good defense. If Perry has had time to recover from the weight cut, he'll probably win. But if he hasn't, he'll get crushed. Diffenbach did nothing much that match. Lewnes goes hard every second.
Perry is excellent when he has energy. When he doesn't, he's not. I do know that Colt Sponseller beat Kurt Gross who beat Chris Brown who crushed Perry. I know how silly that sounds...but I couldn't resist.
Eric Tannenbaum is an incredible talent but he stands around too much and does nothing. He has to be prodded by his coaches to push himself. If he can push the right buttons at tourney time, he's the one guy that can beat an energetic Perry. But guys that don't push all the time often falter when it matters most.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 10, 2008
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Mike-
Just busting your balls a little bit. I look forward to what you write as you are passionate and knowledgeable about wrestling and it carries over into your writing. I just had to clarify the whole design thing.
As you will recall, I did transfer schools. The final straw that unseated me (made transfer imminent) was the OT loss in the second round of the '91 NCAAs to Travis Fiser of Iowa. I did not have anyone helping me figure out how to beat a traditional (pushing-in your face) Iowa wrestler. I figured it out myself the hard way. So, when you say it would unnerve a lot of others, I feel you brother.
Brian-
'92 National Duals @ Michigan loss v. Sharratt 12-9
'93 National Duals @ Nebraska win v. Sharratt 7-2
'93 Dual meet @ Carver-Hawkeye Arena win v. Sharratt 12-5
'93 Big 10 @ Ohio State win v. Sharratt 2-1 ( his coaches started coaching him to beat me, traded escapes, I had a riding time point; I was briefly pinned from a crab ride position but referree was out of position- I look to it as Karma as I had him and Brooks Simpson stacked and never got the call in other events)
'93 NCAAs @Iowa St win v. Sharratt 7-5
I had a good '93 against him. We wrestled a lot in freestyle. We wrestled in 2000 Olympic Trials twice and traded. I probably only said a couple of words to him during the course of almost ten years competing. I think his me against you attitude carried over beyond college, but I may have been equally as guilty in judging him.
I developed some great working relationships with some of my fellow competitors i.e Dominic Black, Johnny Curtis, Chad Lamer. I looked forward to seeing those guys at events, training camps and competing against them.
That is enough about me as this the OSU v Iowa thread
Rex Holman
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 10, 2008
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Rex: who was your coach at AZ state? Why did you decide to go there initially?
Incidentally, our paths crossed once. I was an assistant coach at Shaker Heights High School and we hosted a post season tourney in our little gym at Woodbury elementary school.
The other coaches and I served as refs and I got your finals bout against Charles Bass--a state placer at 285 from Cleveland Heights. I was nervous as the two of you were so big that I was afraid I'd get crushed. You made my life easy. I blew the whistle, you grabbed him in double overhooks, hipped in and took him to his back. I kneeled down, slapped the mat, got up and raised your hand.
Thank you for keeping me from getting killed.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 10, 2008
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Hank-
Bobby Douglas was the coach. I went there for a lot of reasons.
I remember the tournament at Shaker; I think it would have been '87.
I wrestled up at heavyweight. I remember a match before the finals in which Ron Hall was reffing. The guy tried a headlock to a slip and my pinky was pointed crooked when I stood back up. I was so mad that I bearhugged him right away and belly to belly suplayed him. My opponent and his dad were complaining to the Ron afterward that I should have been disqualified. If you see Ron, tell him thanks for not disqualifying me.
Rex Holman
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 10, 2008
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Quote from Rex Holman's post:
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"The final straw that unseated me (made transfer imminent) was the OT loss in the second round of the '91 NCAAs to Travis Fiser of Iowa. I did not have anyone helping me figure out how to beat a traditional (pushing-in your face) Iowa wrestler. I figured it out myself the hard way.
Rex Holman"
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Did you find the staff and wrestlers at tOSU to be more helpful in that area (you certainly had a high level of success after the transfer), or did you just develop your skills in a way that allowed for more success against that Iowa style?
Also, you'd have to think that Coach Ryan, more than most, understands that mentality and is preparing the Buckeyes for that.
Hank...Did you coach Pete Nathanson? We used to drill and wrestle up at Solon's open mats back in tha day. Great kid, great wrestler.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 11, 2008
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Mike-
I will address your question in a new thread.
Rex
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 11, 2008
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Mike:
I was an asst coach at Shaker from 1986-92 and then head coach from 1992-2000 so I was there for all four of Pete's years as an asst.
Pete was one of the greatest talents I've ever seen--when he felt like wrestling. His head had to be right or he was in big trouble. But his takedown skills were extraordinary. He could stand five feet from an opponent and hit an unstoppable shot. Will Knight and I discuss him often. Will always jokes that in spite of all the great wrestlers he's been around, a Jewish kid from Shaker was the best athlete of the bunch.
The list of wrestlers that Pete defeated at some point in his career is illustrious including Chris Bono (whom he pinned with a cement mixer at Jr Nationals while losing 2-0. Bono had made a name for himself a few months earlier by tying Cary Kolat at the Dapper Dan).
I must have seen you wrestle many times as I was always up at Solon. Yet I've never been quite certain who you are. What high school did you attend?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Gino Iacoboni added to this discussion on January 11, 2008
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Sorry to get off the topic totally but hank said "He could stand five feet from an opponent and hit an unstoppable shot." I remember Dave Mariola Sr. telling me when I was young about Dave Jr. hitting low singles off the whistle when the starting lines were at the edge of the inner circle. You see that work these days but just think how hard it would have been from 5 or six feet away.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio State v. Iowa
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on January 11, 2008
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Hank...I don't mind hi-jacking this thread so much, it's nice just to have some conversation on this site.
I went to Richfield Revere back in the day. I used to drive up to Solon every week and it was by far the best open mat I've ever been involved in. I didn't get near even qualifying for the state tourny until I started to go up there in the off-season. Better then any camp or club; it was nothing to have a state champ, a couple of placers and a college kid in a four man group. I wonder if it's still like that.
Anyway, the summer after my freshman season at Ohio State (that would be the summer before Pete's title run), I came home and would go up there. I'd be in a group with Nathanson, Lenny Schork and Dan Carcelli, and (even with a season of college under my belt) Pete would give me fits. We joked that we had all been in the state finals and Nathanson was yet to place and he got the better of all of us. Truly one of the best 1X placers ever. Strong and fast, with a huge wrestling vocabulary. The kid just knew a ton of stuff for every situation.
To keep it "on topic", are you going to head down to campus for the Iowa dual?
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