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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Steve Lester added to this discussion on May 18, 2013
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"I meant Harry"
Ah. Now, I feel foolish. But perhaps we are related...however distantly.
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on May 20, 2013
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"We need to allow Greco to die a dignified death. I can appreciate it but there is no reason to have two wrestling styles in the Olympics. Better to focus on one and allow Greco to hold it's own championships. It's a niche sport in a non mainstream sport. Time to let it go."
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I think when you start trying to sacrifice one to save the other you show your willing to keep making concessions. When we start saying sports within our sport are "niche' all we do is discredit our self. I have never seen swimming or track come out and discredit one of there 30 something events a piece. I mean is anything more "niche" then Steeple chase? They actually have pushed for more events.
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on May 20, 2013
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Tony: I understand what you're saying.
But keep in mind that in America, we do not place a lot of emphasis on Greco. All one has to do is look at the resources placed into freestyle to see which style we prefer. (We also allow Steve Fraser to serve as our national coach. I might be missing the big picture but he is both uninspiring and seemingly out of touch. No way someone like him lasts a minute running freestyle).
Should the rest of the world share our point of view? Probably not. But, as an American, I'd rather see Greco marginalized and have more freestyle opportunities.
Also, I hate to say this but....Greco has often been the fall back of good/not great wrestlers who simply lack the talent to excel in freestyle. I realize there's a lot of holes to poke in that argument but there's also been a lot of examples to back it up.
Again, that's true of America. Can't speak to the rest of the world.
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on May 20, 2013
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Quote from Hank Kornblut's post:
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"Tony: I understand what you're saying.
But keep in mind that in America, we do not place a lot of emphasis on Greco. All one has to do is look at the resources placed into freestyle to see which style we prefer. (We also allow Steve Fraser to serve as our national coach. I might be missing the big picture but he is both uninspiring and seemingly out of touch. No way someone like him lasts a minute running freestyle).
Should the rest of the world share our point of view? Probably not. But, as an American, I'd rather see Greco marginalized and have more freestyle opportunities.
Also, I hate to say this but....Greco has often been the fall back of good/not great wrestlers who simply lack the talent to excel in freestyle. I realize there's a lot of holes to poke in that argument but there's also been a lot of examples to back it up.
Again, that's true of America. Can't speak to the rest of the world."
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Folkstyle is a niche sport, yet Americans love it. Maybe Americans should quit pushing folkstyle and get on board with the rest of the world? I disagree with basically everything you said especially regarding the talent level of Greco athletes. I'll just end by saying I am glad Americans don't run FILA.
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 21, 2013
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i have always recommended freestyle & Greco to kids wanting to improve in the off-season. Do something new and learn new skills. Wrestle other ambitious talented kids from around the states. U WILL IMPROVE.
However fact is in this country folkstyle draws crowds, freestyle draws zilch, only 3,500 in nations 2nd largest city LA. Two years in a row the US Open in Cleveland drew zilch, its just how it is. How many from this forum attended? few i'm betting.
new FR rules a little better, but freestyle still rewards a guy who does nothing when the initiator's back is exposed in a scramble.
now that BALL&BAG makers are out of business, one day those quaint items from an era past will appear on Antiques Roadshow or be a Jeopardy question. ...s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Tim Rudnick added to this discussion on May 21, 2013
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If we were wrestling freestyle in the high schools then it would attract the crowds that folkstyle currently gets...the average wrestling fan is most familiar with folkstyle because that is predominately what they've seen, and they will tend to go toward that because they have a better understanding of the rules.
To many people both Freestyle and Greco are those two Olympic wrestling that they see once every four years for an hour at 2am. Which is really a shame because they are great styles.
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 21, 2013
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well who knows? however freestyle rules constantly major changes --and some nonsensical changes-- ruined the sport.
plus Amercians don't like to bow to a foreign power --i.e. FILA-- thats our heritage. NFHS & OHSAA are bad enough. FILA & their nonsense would never be accepted here by high schools or colleges-- doomed.
all FILA has going for them is connection to IOC, now that in jeopardy.
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Roe Fox added to this discussion on May 21, 2013
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"Maybe Americans should quit pushing folkstyle and get on board with the rest of the world?"
Maybe Americans, who drive a lot of what happens in the sport/social realms prefer folkstyle/freestyle.
Hank is, in my opinon, correct.
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on May 22, 2013
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Quote from Roe Fox's post:
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""
Maybe Americans, who drive a lot of what happens in the sport/social realms prefer folkstyle/freestyle.."
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That is the thing Americans don't drive anything that happens in the sport. FILA is a European dominated organization and has over the years molded the rules to their advantage. Contrary to what some want to believe Freestyle/Greco is wrestling; folkstyle is the niche within the sport. We have created self importance by pushing our style (folkstyle) as the real wrestling, but I'd safely bet there are far more freestyle and greco wrestler worldwide than folkstyle.
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 22, 2013
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[quote="Tony Bradberry] We have created self importance by pushing our style (folkstyle) as the real wrestling, but I'd safely bet there are far more freestyle and greco wrestler worldwide than folkstyle.[/quote]
yes certainly world-wide more wrestle in olympic styles. But u wrong that US is "pushing our style", as u stated. US is not pushing anything, fact is no one has proposed that the world go to folkstyle.
Americans have the right to enjoy folkstyle, and the rest of the world has the right to enjoy their olympic styles.
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Tony Bradberry added to this discussion on May 22, 2013
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"
yes certainly world-wide more wrestle in olympic styles. But u wrong that US is "pushing our style", as u stated. US is not pushing anything, fact is no one has proposed that the world go to folkstyle.
Americans have the right to enjoy folkstyle, and the rest of the world has the right to enjoy their olympic styles."
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My comment wasn't in regard to pushing folkstyle across the world, but within our own boarders. It was in response to someone calling Greco a niche sport when the truth is folk style is the niche sport(From a worldly view) that we promote domestically as being wrestling.
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 22, 2013
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Tony, yes i agree Greco world-wide is no "niche" sport.
ive always-- going back years-- supported the olympic styles as a great way for high school kids to improve their game in the off-season. My past years that i attended fargo and following those results have taught me that. I'm a long-time BELIEVER, Greco too, for that purpose.
As u know Greco toughens a wrestler up, and ive long said any kid who AAs in fargo in both styles is a MAN (anyone who COMPETES in BOTH styles is a MAN!).
Can get hurt in Greco then u gotta weighin again and wrestle a bunch of FR matches where officials allow things that refs would stop in ohsaa wrestling.
i respect the world-wide view, but i prefer folkstyle as a fan. ...s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Larry Korb added to this discussion on May 22, 2013
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"
However fact is in this country folkstyle draws crowds, freestyle draws zilch, only 3,500 in nations 2nd largest city LA. Two years in a row the US Open in Cleveland drew zilch, its just how it is. How many from this forum attended? few i'm betting.
...s/BobP"
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I don't buy that the success of the NCAA tournament is a direct result of people favoring folkstyle over freestyle.
NCAA Tournament vs. U.S. Open is not an apples-to-apples comparison.
NCAA:
* 330 wrestlers
* fans of particular schools, some of which have enormous followings
* friends and family of the 330 wrestlers
U.S. Open
* ~70? wrestlers
* most have already achieved pinnacle of folkstyle success, and are no longer associated directly with their school
* no real national circuit for new fans to follow (no "MMA Factor" to create rivalries and buzz)
If the situation was reversed: freestyle was used growing up, and throughout scholastic competition; then a switch to folkstyle post-college competition, I think the fan and athlete turnout would be similar in both cases.
Social media is helping to spread the word about the Olympic styles, and hopefully wrestling comes out of this trial with a best-case scenario. A best-case scenario might NOT be inclusion in the Olympics, but rather a stronger global wrestling organization, with a larger reach and less politics. /end rant
Bob: I respect your opinion on this subject, and hear this argument often.
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on May 22, 2013
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Larry, yes, if we used FR in high schools & college we'd be loyal to it --- more loyal than now at least..
however in my years of going to fargo-- about 12 years total since mid 90s-- ive seen alot of the olympic styles, and ive heard alot of opinions from media & coaches. Thru all the changes their judgement on freestyle rules has not been favorable at all. ..s/BobP
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Discussion Topic: new FR & Greco proposed rules
Larry Korb added to this discussion on May 22, 2013
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Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
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"Larry, yes, if we used FR in high schools & college we'd be loyal to it --- more loyal than now at least..
however in my years of going to fargo-- about 12 years total since mid 90s-- ive seen alot of the olympic styles, and ive heard alot of opinions from media & coaches. Thru all the changes their judgement on freestyle rules has not been favorable at all. ..s/BobP"
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An interesting sidenote is that as far as I can remember, the overseas DoD schools wrestle freestyle, so they can get more matches against the locals. At least it was that way when I lived in Japan, mumble-mumble years ago.
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