|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Chris Thomas added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
|
Dan would turn Dake all type of ways!!
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
|
I've read through this entire thread. It's an interesting read and there are some great points of discussion. But clearly the singular fact that will come out of this topic is that is that Hank Kornblut is the Mahatma Ghandi of corned beef.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
|
yes Hank deserves all accolades related to CB.
and i overlooked hvwt Chris Taylor from the unlimited era, over 400 lbs-- he, Gene Mills, Wade Schalles and Gable were the all-time college pinners statistically.
i got John Azevedo opinion of Mills as the top guy from his era, how bout Rex Holman's opinion, the top wrestler regardless of wt from his era??
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
|
All of our craziness and goofy prognosticating aside...these are the threads that are by far the best of this site.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Steve Durose added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
|
Hank- good call on Uetake. He can replace Kemp on my list. As far as P. Smith goes, if you win 4 titles you go on my list, period.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
|
|
Quote from Steve Durose's post:
|
|
"Hank- good call on Uetake. He can replace Kemp on my list. As far as P. Smith goes, if you win 4 titles you go on my list, period."
|
yes Uetake good pick, im sure he on AWN top 5 list, oldtimers love Dan Hodge, Uetake and Gray Simon.
but Hank's Uetake pick does not entirely compensate for "breaking-rules bad Baumgartner pick".
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
|
yes Gable was amazing no doubt. Well John Azavedo said that about Gene Mills too, it was not just the pins, but what he did to you.
ive always contended though, that Gable's coaching achievements - which perhaps exceed his wrestling achievements -- his coaching enhanced his wrestling rep even further, kept his legend in spotlight for decades after he stoped wrestling.
if u can only name 5, the 2nd five might be better than the first 5 and the 3rd 5 just as good too. Look who i am pretty sure aint gonna make AWNs top 5: Gable, John Smith, Pat Smith, Mark Schultz, Stephen Abas, Tom Brands, McIlravy, Joe Willaims, Ed Banach, Haselrig, Gene Mills, Wade Schalles.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Pat Costilow added to this discussion on March 27, 2013
|
I didn't comprehensively backread, so forgive me if this has been brought up. How much do you factor in the fact that, even though this is college only, John Smith won a world title while still in college. Obviously it is not a college accomplishment, but it is indicative of the level he was on while in college.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Rex Holman added to this discussion on March 28, 2013
|
I am a Cael fan, he dominated a lot of excellent wrestlers for 4 years. He is an outlier. I have great admiration that he developed the style of wrestling for a big man which incorporated a shuck, ankle pick and point generating offense.
I had a book written by Bob Dieli entitled Genial Gene Mills Mean Will to Power or at least that is how I remember it. Mills dominated his weight class. He did so because he had some grey area wrestling which his opponents did not necessarily understand which gave him a distinct advantage. Also, he had a motor and pushed the pace. He was a character, too. He would beat people by outrageous scores.
I recall that Howard Ferguson had him do a clinic at St Eds and teach the spiral half series. I am sure that St Eds can credit some of their wins and state champions to this influence. Mitch Clark would not have been the wrestler he was without the Spiral half series of Gene Mills. 9-9-12 baby! I had the Gene Mills video. In my 9th grade public speaking class, I did how to properly run a half nelson. Huge influence on my wrestling as well.
As Bob mentioned, He did not have the same success as a head coach to bolster his reputation and have hugely successful wrestlers accredit their success to his him.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 28, 2013
|
good stuff Rex.--- yes the Howard Ferguson era st Eds lived and breathed the "spiral ride" --as taught by Gene Mills-- or in their case it was the "spiral pinning move".
Now since John Heffernan became the key man in the room the last 20 some years, st Eds is much better on top, often with the Turk and that tilt everyone uses, don't see spiral as much anymore.
one thing Cael had, cant overlook, he had a REDSHIRT year which Dake didnt. Big advantage Cael.
April issue of AWN, btw, has SENSATIONAL photo of Dake on cover. http://awn.theopenmat.com/
As i recall the other 4xer Pat Smith no redshirt year either, however he did sit out one year after his junior year over an academic dispute i believe.
will Logan be the fourth 4xer in history? ...s/BobP
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on March 28, 2013
|
I thought the whole OSU program had to sit a year. That's what cost Alan Fried a title, because he burned his red-shirt his tru frosh season. Smith had a red-shirt to give, so he used it that year. I think that was the year Mollica won it, so you've got to think Smith would have been a heavy favorite to sweep four without a red-shirt.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Jason L. Jackson added to this discussion on March 28, 2013
|
If what you are looking for is best careers, then the list has to include Smith, Sanderson and Dake, and should probably include Hodge, Uetake and Koll (3x undefeated champions who didn't get to wrestle as freshman). Those guys all won everything they could, with the latter three never losing at all.
Then you get into the three time champs that lost and look at Gable, Kemp, etc.
Consider, that based on this theory of naming a GOAT that Terry Bradshaw is the greatest QB of all time. He won the Super Bowl more than anyone else and never lost. Payton Manning might not make the top 10.
If you are looking for the best wrestlers from a physical and technical perspective, then the conversation changes, in my opinion. I cannot include Dake in the list myself for the simple reason that I believe that a senior Jordan Burroughs would have beaten Dake, and fairly easily at that. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I believe. Therefore, unless I put Burroughs in the top 5, Dake can't be there.
I am only 36 years old, and I didn't really start following college wrestling until I was in my mid 20's, so I don't have the background that many on here have. Thinking about the wrestlers that I have watched that awed me from a physical domination perspective and that, on their best day, were untouchable, I think of Burroughs, Darrion Caldwell and Ben Askren. You would have to include Sanderson, and, from all accounts, Kemp, Gable and Hodge have to be considered. There are many others as well.
I think the real issue is the definition of the GOAT. Is it the most impressive resume or is it the guy that you would bet on in a 1 v 1 battle. I like the latter.
Like I said, Dake has made history with 4 titles in 4 weight classes, but I wouldn't lay money on a senior year Dake vs. a senior year Burroughs. I wouldn't bet against a senior year Sanderson against anyone that I can think of either.
Now my brain is tired of thinking. I'm going to stop rambling.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on March 28, 2013
|
i'll get back to MikeR when Ron Good gets back to me, re Pat Smith sit-out, i asked for clarification.
Jason,
Gable had no 3 titles (as u said), 2 titles only, freshmen couldnt compete.
re Dake ability-- when Olympian, former college coach and now hs coach John Azavedo called yesterday re Ironman, we talked about Dake.
Azavedo who wr head to head vs Gene Mills, was lavish in his praise for what Dake can do: he is a great scrambler, thats often overlooked, gets out of awkward situations, rides like a beast and even though he keeps moving up a weight class, he is always as strong as anyone in his wt.
sure Burroughs might have beat him, or he might not, but u say EASILY, come on be reasonable, is David Taylor now chopped liver ??!! Dake 3 & 0 vs Taylor this season. ...s/BobP
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: Who are the best college wrestlers ever?
Brady Hiatt added to this discussion on March 28, 2013
|
MikeR is correct, OSU was on probation. Fried stayed at OSU and lost a year (and was loved even more by Cowboys fans because of it) and Pat Smith had a redshirt to use so he did.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
