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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Lou Demas added to this discussion on December 15, 2009
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Rex-
Glad to hear back from ya! Also like to thank you for being able to discuss religion, philosophy and wrestling in such an open manner. I have often found that reason and civility gets thrown out the window the moment you question anyone's belief system. I believe to a certain extent, everything is subjective and the only way to be objective to challenge your own belief's.
I to have no need of televangelist or self help guru's, Does not matter to me if God created the world in six days or millions of years. I don't believe if you don't believe what I believe, you go to hell. I do believe in intelligent design but I go a step further and call the designer God and God revealed himself as the incarnate Christ. Sure, this is all Subjective just as scientist believe in dark matter or some particle they know exist's yet have not found but all the evidence points that way. I do believe that philosopher's such as Lao Tzu, Buddha, Heraclitus and Socrates were glimpsing God just as scientist glimpse dark matter, string theory, or some exotic particle. Their is a good movie call What The Bleep Do We Know that does good job at in describing reality terms of quantum physics and how we really influence our own reality. I think Christ taught us great lessons in reality at a quantum physics level. Christ was An Icon of true reality. Had Christ come down and said I God and I am holding everything together at a Quantum Level, things that appear solid to you are only vibrating particles with vast space in between them and we are all interconnected. Your thought and actions effect the whole of the cosmos. Then Christ would have had to give a discourse on quantum physic's and explain thing's like what Einstein's called spooky physics, I think he would have lost em!! Christ put it simple, Love your neighbor as yourself, love love, your enemies and love your God. Everything is connected. Now as a wrestler what God did as Christ really resonates with me because of the utter true power what he did to drive home his point of and all loving God or Intelligent designer. He was tortured,humiliated and killed and never allowed any of this to control him. What power of one's self to never have anyone control you, no one can force you to hate. Now for those who reject this gift of and choose a reality of self centered passion's, death will be a hell unsatisfying existence. It is like if you live on a planet where you could do what ever you wanted but you were the only person on that planet and you could not die, I think all of us would choose death just to have a companion rather than stay alive for eternity alone, if given a choice. I think many people are consumed with their own existence and are in reality choosing an eternity alone and disconnected.
BTW I am a bad Christian but I believe these thing's to be true and correct just as scientist believe in dark matter and some unknown particle. Feel free to knock a whole in anything you like, I enjoy learning threw discussion.
Law of Pace-
Love what you wrote on this one. I sometimes describe wrestling to my wrestler's in terms of a slap fight in which you see one opponent gain a slight advantage and very quickly the other opponent crumbles. I also tell my wrestles you can't be 5 moves ahead of your opponent if he is good or even 2 moves ahead, there are just to many variables on how a good wrestler can defend an attack. However if you attack your opponents position and keep the pace up that you keep him always feeling like he is defending his position 2 thing happen. First you have shut down his offense and secondly there up point where your opponent will get over loaded with stimuli and his brain will just pause or quit giving you the take down or turn. I think the Russian train better than us in regard's to this because they put more emphasis on position than moves and and because their kids stay with the same coach for years, that coach is always fixing area's where his wrester is weak in a position. We on the other hand have different coaches for our middle school, junior hs. and high school and we focus more on moves, which may vary from each different program.
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on December 15, 2009
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I love Lou and Rex.
Please keep typing!
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Grant McCormick added to this discussion on December 15, 2009
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oh goodness, that's good stuff.
completely agree with the position vs. moves talk...the difficulty is getting kids to buy in.
How 'bout pace setting in the alternative--- slowing down the rate of action to reduce opponent's advantages in conditioning or athleticism?
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 16, 2009
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Lou-
No holes in your beliefs. I am not out to try and prove anyone wrong, I would just like to help people along their way. We are all on different paths, united temporarily, but ultimately going about our separate ways. Wrestling has been a common bond amongst us that allows for our interactions and shared experience. Wrestling is unique in its' passion, physicality and allowances are similar but unlike other sports and provides lessons for our development.
Without rambling too much, I believe we have profound moments everyday in which something transpires or interactions occur guided by an intelligent source. These are central to our humane and spiritual development. We perceive them and interpret them based upon our developmental needs at that time. My job as a FF-EMT has given me rise for growth in large capacity and it seems like each day there are multiple issues which require reflection and further thought. Wrestling has provided the foundation for so much of my experience, interactions and beliefs that it is always a part of my daily reflection.
Grant-
You are correct. I slanted a law due to Iowa's use of a style that allows for advantage. In lawyer talk, they take advantage of a loophole. It would be more wise to express the law differently to accomodate for the slower pace as a means of limiting risk or maintaining a lead. I will work on it as it presents a challenge. Interesting that the talk moved towards Foreign wrestlers and position as it seems like their wrestling is grounded in limited risk and position maintenance when leading a match.
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 16, 2009
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Redo.
Law of Pace-Pace is the rate at which events unfold as determined by the pace setter. The pace setter affects the rate by stifling or generating legitimate attacks. By successfully stifling attacks, the athlete actualizes the slowing of rate which may be of interest to the athlete who is attempting to frustrate, or limit opportunites to the opponent, and/or maintain and secure a lead. Also, the slowing of rate may be utilized as a strategic measure to limit the offense of an opponent. An increased rate of generating attacks may be used to exploit an unprepared athlete as increased pace has the cumulative effect of fatigue. Over time, the unprepared athlete will succumb to fatigue, which will cause a material change of position for the worse. The consequent advantage to the pace setter, likely will be capitalized on in terms of scoring. There may be a momentous loss of position in the pace settee as the cumulative effect of duress overwhelms their mental capacity. Thus, they are unable to accommodate further attack and their position is severely compromised.
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Last edited by Rex Holman on December 17, 2009; edited 2 times in total
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 16, 2009
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Grant-
Coaches need to be creative in convincing young wrestlers to adopt skills and behaviors. Once laws have been identified it is up to the coach to apply drills that reflect the nature of a law.
In the case of pace, A drill to incorporate slowing the pace would be to structure part of practice or a drill to reflect a wrestler having a 1 point lead lead with roughly 15-30 seconds go. Involving different variables i.e.center of the mat, edge of the mat, with wrist control, no control, etc. Specifically stating what the objective is (maintaining position and limiting risk, while staying busy) for numerous reps. You gotta be careful with that one as I have seen some pretty nasty headbutting as a result.
For increasing the pace, timed drilling for 1 minute, how many attacks (partner enabled) can the athlete get in one minute. These are good drills for the end of practice when everyone is experiencing bouts of fatigue and need to further condition the mind and body.
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Lou Demas added to this discussion on December 16, 2009
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Grant-
I feel that slowing a match down is a reality of the sport I don't much care for. I don't like to to teach that aspect of the sport to youth because I find they will rely on it to win and I will lose coaching opportunities. That being said, when wrestlers are at an elite level they have to be aware if the their conditioning level in relationship to opponents plus have deep a understanding of their physical attributes and skill sets compared to opponent. The best elite wrestlers also know that these things can change at a micro level within a match, fast wrestler slows down after being worn down by a stronger opponent in front head lock or stronger wrestler scrambles with faster wrestler doesn't have enough oxygen to fuel larger muscles and they adjust for the moment.
As I said I don't care for wrestling with intent to slow match down. This is what a prefer to coach elite wresters in do. I teach them to attack in ways that that give them the advantage overtime while still looking to score. I would have them close distance try to have their opponent carry their weight, scoring when opportunity presents. If opponent is faster I would limit him to the outside shot of my choosing that I defend well, forcing him to tie and make him carry my weight, again looking to score. Over time if done well, I will have neutralized his speed or strength and conditioning.
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 17, 2009
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Lou-
While I admire the intent of your philosophy regarding an active pace, it does not account for momentum, which is a very real dynamic. How many times have you seen football call a time out to ice the kicker, it is to disrupt energy and manage pace, how about basketball and the timeout just as a team has been hot and going on a scoring run. I have even seen Iowa wrestlers slow the pace down and wrestle defensively to secure the lead. These are very proactive actions with design. If you effectively control the pace with a lead, you win. If you engage too much, you are taking on added risk and potentially lose.
While I do put an emphasis on winning, it is not an end all for me. I think you play by the rules and happens what may. But I think you really need
to identify how to win given the reality of the situation. Who knows we may agree on what is acceptable as an attack and what constitutes looking to score given the pace scenario but risk truly needs to be minimized in that situation.
Did you see Duane Goldman literally run away from Dan Chaid in the NCAA finals in Goldman's senior year after finishing 2-2-2-. It was classic and exemplifies this topic in an odd way.
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Lou Demas added to this discussion on December 17, 2009
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Rex-
I believe the risk to reward of my philosophy of active pace is a strategy that wins more often. I will agree with you that there are, what i would call the micro aspects of a match in which a wrestler may stop wrestling completely to change dynamic of match to gain advantage or secure win. They are for micro amounts of time compared to entire length of match. I tell wrestlers, if you find you have a opponent who actively stalling in a close match that they should stand up and stop wrestling safely yet in manner that points out to the ref and spectators your opponent is stalling. I also find acceptable if a wrestlers acts more tired than he is, to lull his opponent into having him open up. Yet these are all micro aspects in relationship to the total duration of match. In my given example's still rely on a wrestler's ability to push pace and action. The more tired wrestler more often will react in the manner you desire, open up for fear of a stalling call or doesn't want spectator's to perceive him as running away and opening up his attack when he feels he has the upper hand in conditioning. I coach that the primary function of inactivity would be to seek activity to gain positional advantage. Had Dan Chaid applied my philosophy, perhaps Duane Goldman would not had presence of mind or energy to run away to secure win.
It will leave you with one last thought . Josh and I were talking to Henry Cejudo last year after state and Henry said this '' if you want to beat the Russian's And European's you have to Bang Bang Bang their heads to get them out of position, If not they will try score and then stay in great position, forcing you to open up". I perceive this as saying the best way to beat a style that wins with inactivity is to force them into activity.
Side bar- This why I feel FILA changes the rules every time we catch up technically. the shorting of the Duration of match from 3 - 3 minute period to 1-5 minute period to now where a wrestler can end a match within 4 minutes reflects this!!!
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 17, 2009
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I agree that an inreased/active pace wins more often. I agree that in order to take a Russian out of position, you have to physically move his head. I agree that active engagement with intent to score or improve position should be the mind set for the predominant part of the match.
But strategically and I see this play out all the time; guys who have developed that area of their wrestling will win in the latter part of the match if they wrestle to maintain position.
I watched part of the NWCA All Star meet today 125,133, and 149. At 125 the ODU wrestler could not handle the pace of the Minnesota wrestler and he was trying to maintain position with limited conditioning and limited defensive skills. One of the two announcers exclaimed that pace was everything for that matter at the end of the match, it made me smile as we have been discussing this topic. BTW, Jim Gibbons and the other guy former IPTV guy I can't remember his name at present, extremely knowledgeable.
At 133 same thing, Dennis from Iowa kept the pace up and the Maryland wrestler could not accomodate.
At 149, different story, Lance gave up the td in the third period and escaped. He had enough time to set up good attacks and did so to an extent. However, The American wrestler coached by Mark Cody did a skillful job of matching Lance's intensity while maintaining position. I make distinction that he was 1)wrestling to win 2)wrestling to maintain position 3) wrestling skillfully 4) minimizing risk. It was beautifully executed 20 seconds of wrestling on the American wrestler's behalf. I was impressed.
The announcer did make reference to Lance needing a stronger penetration step which has been the only thing lacking in Lance's arsenal in the last couple of years. Lance's defense and position were excellent for this time of the year.
One Olympic champ for another, Brandon Slay beat Satiev by way of a 1pt td and 2 pt gutwrench and then some of the most active defense that Kevin Jackson could coach. Had he continued to engage Satiev with intent to score, I feel that he would have ended up in some scrambles and lost.
I feel that we have not only beat the dead horse but are now in the stages of putting it in the blender and making smoothies. ;)
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Lou Demas added to this discussion on December 18, 2009
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Rex-
Next time let's beat strawberries to death because a would prefer them in smoothies!!!
Thank you for all the thought provoking wrestling post, look forward to your next one.
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Rex Holman added to this discussion on December 18, 2009
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Nothing satisfies like a horse pulp smoothie.
Law of Outcome- Each competition has an outcome, which was preceded by a series of positions and culminated in some definitive measure for determining a winner. As athletes, we channel our energies toward that end since it is a known commodity and becomes a goal. While the outcome frames the finality of the event, it does not tell the story. Each outcome is time and position dependent. There is always an amount of time which transpires and the positions that evolve account for advantages which take shape in the form of scoring. These positions over time are the way to properly assess the competition rather than focusing on outcome alone. The critical positions of the competition in which advantage was won, lost or mitigated for further continuation need to be assessed in terms of their usefulness. Out of this, we are able to develop the habits which will positively impact outcome. Outcome evokes deep emotional states, which may induce and allow for inflammatory and irrational consequence. Knowing this, we shall condition ourselves to act appropriate indeterminate of outcome.
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Last edited by Rex Holman on December 19, 2009; edited 1 time in total
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Lou Demas added to this discussion on December 18, 2009
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Rex-
Dead Horse Smoothies, if thats not a drink served in some back water Texas or Oki bar it Should be!
Could you please elaborate or this statement you made:
Outcome evokes deep emotional states, which may betray our sensibilities and allow for inflammatory and irrational consequence. Knowing this, we shall condition ourselves to act appropriate indeterminate of outcome.
Had to read Law of outcome twice, to find I was in agreement(I'm not that bright) but I believe understand this last statement, however I want to make sure I am not doing what you do with a favorite song, think it means one thing until the song writer says it about a homo erotic tale of two space creatures of different species and from different planets.Then ya have to kick that song out of your ipod for a competition warm up song!
Thanks
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on December 18, 2009
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Aside from the absolutely great and thought provoking posts on this thread, I need to know which song it is. NOW!
How about this one... I remember Rex telling the story about the competitive nature of he and a teammate, who shall remain nameless. After a go, IN THE PRACTICE ROOM mind you, in which Rex won, his teammate punched a wall, and in turn, messed up his hand.
It appears that in this case, Kevin Randleman let his emotions get the best of him.
I tell you that, to tell you this... we now have a wrestler out for a similar reason. BOOOOOO!!!!!!!! Apparently, doors are thick and sturdy.
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Discussion Topic: Natural Laws and Wrestling
Lou Demas added to this discussion on December 19, 2009
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Mark-
Now your just being cruel, you know that's our song!!
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