|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 12, 2013
|
Objectively speaking, the loss last night was worse than the Iowa loss. As stated, Minne has legit 8 AA contenders and a couple of those being finalists. Iowa does not have the same numbers. Minne is 2nd to PSU, who has the highest number of legit AA/finalist. OSU comes in with lower ratio and some of the AA contenders are more darkhorse than likely.
Point blank, if the Buckeyes are to continue to rise, it comes down to getting the best talent capable of transitioning to elite college wrestlers. Nothing else matters. It is a binary system. You get the best or you don't. The best either produce or they don't. The rest is noise.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on January 12, 2013
|
|
Quote from Rex Holman's post:
|
|
"
Point blank, if the Buckeyes are to continue to rise, it comes down to getting the best talent capable of transitioning to elite college wrestlers. Nothing else matters. It is a binary system. You get the best or you don't. The best either produce or they don't. The rest is noise."
|
BOOYAH! You had me at "hello" :-D C'mon Rex, you know that made you crack a small grin!
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Jeremy Park added to this discussion on January 12, 2013
|
|
Quote from Bob Preusse's post:
|
|
"something appears not right-- the last half of the lineup has only one weight class, the hvwt, that is wrestling well (unless Demas stays at 165".
Ryan & staff have changed the "culture"....But not enough.
ohio state is a # 5-7 program. Not an NCAA championship program- yet. ...s/BobP"
|
this hits the "nail on the head". i know nothing of what it takes to be an elite collegiate wrestler, having not even been an elite high school wrestler. im a fan of wrestling, ohio wrestling. knee jerk reactions from fans happen, im guilty. bob's post is in my opinion spot on. coach ryan has done a wonderful job, along with all the boys in that room. i do not want to over look all of the positives and focus on just their shortcomings. whats nice is having that feeling that the team is right there. better then most but not quite there yet. as a fan it can be frustrating... but isn't it nice that the expectation of top 3 is there? it will happen!
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on January 12, 2013
|
Just a reminder... The BigTen Tournament is at Illinois U. this year, and is the weekend AFTER the state tournament.
I'm just saying.
ps: LOVE the comments. I'm noticing a whole slew of new people. And I love it.
I do believe Logan adds a spark when on the mat. Seeing him in the chairs with the team (or even in the room, on the bus, etc.) - TO ME - is not the same as watching him compete. He competes at a VERY high level. He is the spark for this team.
Great stuff! Thanks for the read.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 12, 2013
|
Patrick-
I cracked a grin.
It would likely be a difficult season to endure if not for the Stiebers. You can't do any better than the Stiebers. Both undefeated, aiming with requisite firepower to win NCAA titles. If they were not Buckeyes, their likely replacements would highly unlikely be equivalent replacements.
The Buckeyes are likely a 5th place finish at NCAA tournament due to Stiebers along with some help from others.
Regarding culture, it is a word which encompasses a lot. Bottom line are your kids developing patterns of behavior (on the mat) which produce scores or eliminate opponent's scores.
Are you able as a coach to identify, address and instill in your wrestlers these behaviors?
I think the easiest path to winning is getting wrestlers who already own these behaviors and need a little help in the adjustment.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Erik Nell added to this discussion on January 12, 2013
|
|
Quote from Pat Altvater's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Erik Nell's post:
|
|
"
|
Quote from Mark Cummings's post:
|
|
"Ok I'll bite.
Over-rated? Really? Losing to 2 of the top 4 teams in the country in back-to-back weekends with your best wrestler out hardly qualifies as over-rated. As a fan I'm disappointed but this is the 5th best team in the country right now and that's where they are ranked."
|
Yes Mark in my opinion as of today they are over-rated just like the Ohio State Basketball team was over-rated being 4th in the country. Just like a wrestler who was ranked 2nd in the country and I have not seen him put together a shot, re-shot scramble since his freshman year. Fact of the matter they are young and their monroville 3 are the biggest goers on the team, that does not make you 5th in the country."
|
First of all Erik, I would love to see you walk into the OSU wrestling room and tell Tom and the boys that they are over-rated at #5. - Their reactions could be amusing!
Secondly, I couldn't disagree with you more. We have just lost to the #3 and #4 teams in the nation without our team leader, and national champion, Loagan Stieber. I don't see any team in the nation other than the top 4 teams in the nation that can come close on paper to stacking up to OSU - when they are healthy and in game full conditioning.
Thirdly,if they are over-rated at #5, who do you think should be elevated above them. OSU has already defeated #7 Missouri and #8 Cornell in a tournament, in which we probably lost 20 points because one of our #1 seeds had to default due to an injury during warm-ups. We also have beaten #10 Virginia Tech 23-10 in a dual on 11/16/12. I believe that we would dominate the upper classes against #9 Central Michigan, and even though I believe that we will beat #6 Illinois, we will wrestle them on 2/1/13 in Oak Harbor to determine that one.
Fourthly, in all sports, injuries and down-time greatly affect athletes performance at a given time. Personally, I don't think that we have seen the best performance by the OSU team yet this year. I believe that they are building, developing, and healing in getting ready for the apex of the season, which is the national duals in Feb., the Big 10 tourney, and the NCAA tourney. An example of this is:
125 - Nikko seemed to suffer from being away from NCAA competition for two years, but seems to be getting back into good form now.
133 - The team has really missed Logan the last two weeks. He's a great on the mat, and inspirational leader.
149 - Cam has faced tough competition and started slow, but seems to be rounding into form now, and is looking tough.
174 - I believe the injury layoff has really hurt his conditioning and match readiness, but he will get it back before next month. And, don't knock his defensive style, it had worked pretty well in earning him the #2 ranking in the nation.
Fifthly, you seemed to have a circular argument. You said that the team is too young, but then you mentioned the success of the Monroeville three. With the lineup that wrestled last night, the 'M'-three are probably the 3 youngest starters that we have. Everyone needs to step up and wrestle their best, and its not just a youth issue anymore."
|
Pat I respect your opinion, and I assume if I told Thad Matta his team was over rated he may be taken aback. I spoke to coach Ryan after he lost to Kent St. and I was sraight foward and he agreed with me,(They were not good)
Your other stuff is cool but at the end of the day in d1 big boy wrestling it comes down to wins and losess
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Mark Cummings added to this discussion on January 12, 2013
|
I think Matta's bunch I over-rated also for what it's worth.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 13, 2013
|
"Bottom line--are your kids developing patterns of behavior (on the mat) which produce scores or eliminate opponent's scores."
"Are you able as a coach to identify, address and instill in your wrestlers these behaviors?"
I think the easiest path to winning is getting wrestlers who already own these behaviors and need a little help in the adjustment."
Rex: Your above comments reflect national champion insight.
But, here's my follow-up. Can a program do more to foster these winning behaviors? Specifically, do you believe that programs like PSU and Minny are elite due to their ability to identify and recruit the right student athletes? Or do you think it's the environment/culture at the program? Or a combination?
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Pat Altvater added to this discussion on January 13, 2013
|
Erik:
I apologize if my response came off a little aggressive. That was not my intent.
I guess a just got a little fired up. I do tend to be a passionate fan.
I am the first person to say that everyone has the right to their opinion, mine just happened to be a little different than yours.
Actually, I hope that the coaches can get the problems fixed, and you can agree with me at the end of the season that this really is a good OSU team.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Patrick Campbell added to this discussion on January 13, 2013
|
|
Quote from Rex Holman's post:
|
|
"Patrick-
I cracked a grin."
|
Well, I fell short in 2012, but to pull that off in the 1st 12 days of 2013 is an huge personal victory for me. My training and hard work, in fact, has finally paid off.
Hank- It certainly has to be a combination of both. Every one a team recruits are not going to be Logan and Hunter, yet there are young men out there that are not these 2 guys that develop into fantastic collegiate wrestlers. So J. Robinson recruits some fantastic guys, but he also has a culture in that room that really brings them along. To me, Ness, is their Logan, but the other guys (whom are great in their own right, don't get me wrong) are also being pushed in Robinson's style of development and becoming something that is, I hate to admit, I full step ahead of tOSU (for now). Maybe all of those pieces are in place at tOSU and it's a decade long investment into a program to get there or maybe something is missing. Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 13, 2013
|
Well, Patrick, what I'm asking (specifically to Rex but obviously anyone can answer) is what he thinks about the philosophy he espouses as it currently relates to the Buckeyes.
Are there too many wrestlers currently on the roster that are not meeting the criteria he suggests? Or is the staff not doing a good enough job in instilling these habits in the wrestlers? Neither? Both? And, does he (Rex) feel that the two programs that to me are the elite in D1--PSU and Minny--are recruiting more of the right type of kids or is it an environmental difference. Personally, I think it's more of the latter but that's not something of which I'm certain.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Rex Holman added to this discussion on January 13, 2013
|
Hank-
I think PSU and Minnesota get top talent and assist the wrestlers in their development. You can make generalizations about style and program but I think all coaches are willing to entertain having a wrestler on their team who has a proven track record of winning regardless of style.
Cael moved to PSU for recruiting purposes. He knew that Pa and its' adjacent areas were not effectively being recruited. Minnesota slowly got it done. J Robinson moved to Minnesota in ’86-’87. It was 2000, when they first won a team title. Being around the sport for so long and having the experience of personal insight coupled with objectivity may give one an advantage regarding speculation of a student athlete's potential. I would call it athlete profiling and while it would not give 100% certainty, it would definitely tip the odds in your favor.
Theoretically, the way to fast track development is to spend time in a given position, gain aptitude and understand the consequences of it. Repetitions, feedback, adjustments, repeat this cycle over time. This is the way practice was structured at the OTC. Bruce Burnett and Kevin Jackson were the coaches. Time was spent in position, mat locations and under circumstance. i.e. edge of the mat, head outside single from your feet, next point ends the match. By doing so, things became very specific, task/end goal oriented. Of course you wrestle matches as well because they are the litmus test of marrying sequence and position.
Noise, which gets in the way of development, is all the stuff which takes away from learning to be task specific and endgoal oriented. Noise can be emotions, inefficient use of time, bad advice, not understanding position, lack of confidence, attending to the wrong variables, etc.
Open ended practices are stupid. There I said it. If you want to go in the room and just wrestle or meet some arbitrary standard of wrestling for a certain amount of time, then it is not the most efficient use of time. An athlete only has a given amount of energy and effort to give you each day. The use of that energy and effort must be spent meeting objective measures each day, especially if your athlete is deficient in a given area. Again, identify, address, instill which relates to the above cycle of repetitions, feedback and adjustments.
Quick story, when I was coaching high school, I had to miss part of the practice and expressed what I wanted accomplished. It was a match day. 4 matches high intensity breaks in between. So, I arrived late, and the matches were being wrestled but the intensity level was less than good. I caught our wrestler who would later be a state champion, looking up at me while “hanging out in bottom position” I blew a gasket. Bottom line, the type of effort, and action you want out of an athlete needs to be closely monitored otherwise effort and/or skills may be lacking. Effort is not so much an issue at the collegiate level but skill is often overlooked.
When athletes are highly evolved in their skillsets, then the adjustments are fewer and easier to adopt. The athlete becomes more evolved and leaves the competition in their wake. Makes a coach look like a genius. How many times does that get thrown around nowadays? If an athlete is not particularly strong at a skillset, then it has the potential to be an Achilles heel which will plague them and prevent from reaching their potential.
JMHO.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Kim Stone added to this discussion on January 14, 2013
|
Saw this on Facebook & had to share.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on January 14, 2013
|
|
Quote from Kim Stone's post:
|
|
"Saw this on Facebook & had to share.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.""
|
Teddy Roosevelt used to get credit for this phrase. Not sure he actually said it.
|
|
|
|
|
Discussion Topic: OSU vs. Minnesota (1/11)
Mark Niemann added to this discussion on January 14, 2013
|
Hank and Kim: Did you know... Mr. Theodore Roosevelt was the president of the United States of America! He served in office from 1901-1909.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
