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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on September 21, 2007
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All you can say about the Russian Freestyle performance at the World Championships is WOW!!!
6 Gold Medals and 1 Bronze. They only lost one match the entire tournament and that was to the eventual Gold Medalist. Unbelievable. They are going to runaway with the team title scoring 68 points out of a total possible of 70.
In contrast, the U.S. team will probably finish third behind Turkey and we only had one Bronze medalist and 4 5ths.
We obviously have some work to do before next summer.
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 21, 2007
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It really is amazing. Everyone likes to talk about how our athletes have sometimes gotten scr-wed by officials, etc... but it never derails the Russians. They are the best in the world by far.
Of course, it helps that they don't wrestle folkstyle.
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on September 21, 2007
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We here that alot, we wrestle folkstyle and they don't, etc., etc. I think that that is an excuse more than a reason.
The Cubans, the Iranians, the Turkish, the Ukrainians, etc., etc., don't wrestle folkstyle. They were still dominated by the Russians also.
The Russian team and program just has no equal. I think that the future is bright for the U.S. but we are still way off.
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on September 21, 2007
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Scott,
I'm going to disagree with you on this. I think it makes a big difference that we emphasize folkstyle for most wrestlers' entire careers. A place where I think we can see that at work is when we see the difference between wrestlers who have had FS/GR training (at OTC) and ones who haven't (just out of high school or college). Ben Askren is a stud in Folkstyle but did not enjoy the same success yet in Freestyle. There would be a huge difference the level he is at if he had been training for Freestyle competition his whole life. By contrast, by the time Henry Cejudo gets to be Askren's age, he will have competed at many World-level events and possibly even the Olympics (like a Russian). Cejudo will be much better in comparison at the same age.
Now, on the other hand, could we have the Dream Team in wrestling like we did in basketball in the 1990s? It would be incredibly unlikely because of the parity that exists on the international level. In reality, the Russians had the closest thing to a Dream Team this year. But remember what happened after the basketball Dream Team was done? The USA stopped being invincible. It's not because we produce worse basketball players, it's because the rest of the world is catching up and that is creating parity. If we followed suit in wrestling, the same thing would happen to Russia as what happened to the USA in basketball.
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 21, 2007
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Coach Shaw--you make a good point to a degree. The Russians are the best not only because they focus on freestyle but because they have the best training methods and tradition. But there's no denying that the USA would be far more formidable in freestyle/greco if we had our best wrestlers focus on it at a younger age. I think Harry Lester has proven this point and Henry Cejudo will as well.
We have an ever increasing number of collegiate "club" wrestling programs courtesy of the NCWA. I'd love if these groups would switch their focus to freestyle or greco. I don't see it happening but it would make for a great experiment.
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Al McIntosh added to this discussion on September 21, 2007
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The stark reality is that the US has a loooong way to go to be as dominate as Russia is. However placing 5 wrestlers in the top 5 and 1 bronze isn't bad, but it's just not where we want the Freestyle team to be.
By contrast the US Greco program just won a World Team title. That magnitude of that is simply uncomprehensible.
Hank, would love to see if you can get a post World Championship interview done with Harry & the US Greco World Team. I enjoyed reading your last interview with Harry done right after University Nationals.
Here's are a few must see videos posted on youtube of our Ohio World Team members.
Joe Heskett vs. Maxach Murtazaliev (Russian). To put things in perspective Maxach Murtazaliev is the Russian World Champion wrestler who bumped up a weight class to defeat Buvaysar Saytiev the multiple World and Olympic Gold medalist. Saytiev had won every World and Olympics since 1996 when he beat Kenny Monday except in 2000 when Brandon Slay pulled off an incredible upset. Saytiev won his last World title in 2005, and he won the 2004 Olympic gold. Murtazaliev by contrast medal as a 21 year old in 2004 Olympics, won a World title in 2005, DNP last year and bumped up in weight this year to challenge Saytiev for the 74 kg. spot and won. Maxach Murtazaliev would go on to win his second World title at this tournament. However before he could do that he had to get by Joe Heskett in this semifinal bout. This in my opinion maybe one of those turning point matches in Joe Heskett’s career despite the fact that he came up short. Simply a great match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z48FnlH8y5s
Tommy Rowlands vs. Valera Rodriguez (Cuba). Rodriguez is a past World Champion from Cuba, and Rowlands lost to him at the Pan Am Games. A clear contrast in two styles. Rowlands style is purely American with a classical knee bent stands, while Rodriguez style is clearly influence by the classical eastern European lean. I’m confident Tommy will make the adjustments to win gold next year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ9Q9hPo0ug
Lester vs. Hiltunen (Finland). Simply put, if you ever thought Greco Roman was boring you need to see this video. Not only does Harry completely dominate his opponent with some of the most aggressive Greco Roman wrestling I’ve ever seen. He hits some very nice moves that are transferable in any style. Notice his penetration steps – done in the same manner you would hit a highcrotch or double with the only difference being instead of grabbing the legs his arms go around his opponent waist. In short this match is a human highlight tape.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z88cT-NqBIY&NR=1
Lester vs. Lorincz (Hungary): Harry’s Bronze Medal Match – Harry continues to demonstrate that aggressiveness that has made him a multiple World Medalist at the age of 23. Harry’s my pick to win Gold next year in Beijing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMG4kUmtRFM
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 21, 2007
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Al--I've been very busy at work and not had much time for wrestling stuff. But the world championships are special and I've made time to read/view videos, etc...
The fact that the US, where greco has often been an afterthought, pulled out the title, is a moment to savor for our wrestlers and coaches. And Harry is fantastic. Perhaps it's best he not yet win worlds as it saves motivation for the olympics.
I like your assessment of Rowlands vs the Cuban. Rowlands has great stuff but his style will have to continue to evolve away from folk if he's to medal next year. The Cuban was a bit heavier, stronger and more skilled in maintaining position.
One thought that concerns me is that Heskett and Rowlands come home and go back to coaching folkstyle. The truth is they should be away from it. I can't imagine it's advantageous to coach/wrestle folkstyle while simultaneously training in freestyle. Both Tom and Joe showed they can medal in the olympics if they can continue to finetune their game. I love Heskett's single legs. When he's able to get his hands locked, he always finishes.
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Al McIntosh added to this discussion on September 22, 2007
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Hank, I think Lou Rosselli's the key. His influence help landed them both on their first World Team and a 5th place finish at Worlds. Now they need to build on that experience to win first the trials and then the Gold in Beijing. Coach Ryan has given these guys a ton of freedom to fly back and forth to the Olympic Training center throughout the season, and I'm sure that will continue as Ohio State is reaping the benefits (from a recruitment standpoint) of having two World Teamers and perhaps Olympians as members of their coaching staff. In Columbus, Rosselli has to put together a training plan design at advancing these wrestlers to the next level. I don't think they can accomplish what they want to coaching folk and training in freestyle without Rosselli, so he's the key ingredient to making it all happen. They should be fine with Rosselli. Maybe Rosselli will call in a favor with his former Edinboro athletic director boss Bruce Baumgartner for Rowlands.
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 22, 2007
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There was an interesting comment on themat.com by one of the posters (BigApple) who has been around the sport a long time. He suggested that our greco success had come about due to the committment of Steve Fraser and company to seeking out the best coaches from around the world. He said that our greco training has continuously evolved to reflect the changes in the sport and that we've shown a steady upward progression for years.
He then blasted the USA freestyle program. He stated that the Iowa influence had worked well when freestyle matches went for as long as 9 minutes. But, with the new rules in place and best 2 of 3, BigApple stated that we need to have better technique. He argued that we don't score enough points even when we win. And we continue to be lousy on top. He felt that the Oklahoma style worked better in freestyle and that the USA would continue to be "second-rate" in freestyle until we utilized better coaches and divorced ourselves from the Iowa wrestling mindset.
I thought it was a provocative post and one worthy of consideration.
I hope that Joe and Tom do what's best for them as they have one big year ahead in our sport.
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Scott Shaw added to this discussion on September 24, 2007
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I think that everyone has made very valid points here, but the bottom line is that people have gotten done in the past. John Smith, Tom and Terry Brands, Cael Sanderson, Lee Kemp, Bruce Baumgardner, Kevin Jackson, Kendall Cross, Kenny Monday, Ben and John Peterson, Gable, etc., etc. These men won World and Olympic Gold after spending there lives wrestling folkstyle.
You can't really use Harry Lester as an example either. He is only a year (if that) ahead of the curve of those names that I listed above. Keep in mind that Harry (even with a redshirt) would have been done at Iowa State after last season and would have been wrestling internationally all this year anyway. Would he have finished third in the world this year, probably not, but by next summer's Olympics he would have and could have been at this level.
Cejudo may not even be on the Olympic team next summer. Abas and Henson are better than he is and, if properly committed, will not lose to Cejudo in the trials. So to use him as an example may not be the best choice either as it will again be a five to six year committment before we see Cejudo win an Olympic medal.
Again, this is just my opinion and most of you may disagree and think that I am loco, but I think that the person that was talking about style on themat forums hit the nail on the head.
Here is to hoping that we peak next summer and all this will be forgotten.
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 24, 2007
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Scott:
I don't think you're "loco" and love the chance to talk international wrestling. I don't know where Stephen Abas is at in terms of his training. Obviously, when healthy, he was a fabulous competitor. I disagree, however, that he and Henson are better than Cejudo at this point.
Cejudo had bad luck. The carry system employed by FILA is unfair and ought to be scrapped. Cejudo won the PanAms which is more than can be said for Heskett and Rowlands. Had a true double elimination been in place, he would have had a better chance to show what he can do. What I like about Cejudo is that he wrestles like a freestyler rather than a folkstyler. I think that's an important distinction. Incidentally, I think the draw has a huge impact on how most wrestlers perform at Worlds. Only the Russians seem to win no matter what the draw.
Your points that Americans have done well under the old/current system are valid to some extent. But the Russians, Iranians and Cubans are all better freestylers than we are at this point in an overall sense. If we're to improve, there has to be a greater committment to freestyle training and an understanding of how different it is from folk.
FWIW, I think Heskett is a very good freestyler. His style fits the sport well on his feet. But look at how unusual his stance is. He's not the norm.
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on September 24, 2007
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Al,
From what I've been told by Tommy, Joe, and others, you're exactly right. The addition of Lou Rosselli to the room for his influence on our international competitors' training and technique is tremendous. Without Rosselli's coaching, Tommy and Joe wouldn't be where they are... they'd be in Colorado Springs.
Hank,
I think you bring up a great point about the training difference between the OTC versus being in the Buckeye wrestling room. Apparently they keep making it work very well even with the Folkstyle, though.
Scott,
Loco? I wouldn't go that far. Maybe crazy! haha, no. You bring up good points, I just disagree. I think it would be a world of difference for us if we wrestled Freestyle or Greco-Roman our whole lives. Despite it being under the same umbrella of wrestling, there's still definitely a huge learning curve to get to the international medal level.
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Roe Fox added to this discussion on September 24, 2007
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All of you know far more than I about international wrestling but I cannot imagine Harry Lester doing as well as he is at his age in G-R if he would have stayed at ISU. Isn't this a sport where one has to "mature" in the style before they become competitive internationally?
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on September 25, 2007
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Roe:
I concur. Harry has two world bronze to his credit. Look at our history in greco and you'll find few American wrestlers his age with similar accomplishments--if any. Should Harry continue with greco past the Olympics, he could become the greatest American greco competitor in history. Lofty statement but he's very close to being the best in the world at his weight class--and he's in his early 20's. He could dominate at the world level for the next 4-5 years with continued improvement.
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Discussion Topic: The Russians - WOW
Mike Hojnacki added to this discussion on September 27, 2007
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Kevin Jackson made an interesting comment in an interview done by flowrestling. He compared his athletes with the US Greco Team members in regards to how they train. Many of the greco guys train full time at in Colorado Springs or at the USOEC. He said that the results speak for themselves. The greco guys train full time = a world team title.
I am, by no means, bashing any of the freestylers who coach at top DI universities. Look at the Buckeyes. That dynamite staff turned the Buckeyes right around, produced several AA's, and I believe will continue to shape their program into one of the top in the nation. For guys like Heskett and Rowlands to train full time, the Bucks would suffer. However, I am pretty sure that every guy that represents their country thinks that they can be the world champ, and it's very possible that they could. So those guys have to make a decision as to how to go about that (i.e. continue coaching or train full time)...
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