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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on July 28, 2007
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What is happening to Ohio's Junior National program? First the Junior National Dual fiasco and now the worst freestyle finish in years. Why are so many of the top wrestlers skipping the Junior Nationals? Are many of you surprised with such a poor showing after all the post season talk about how strong this year's Senior class was? It seems that many of the top wrestlers are not competing to protect all these useless mythical national ratings. These "dime a dozen" rankings that have no set rules for who qualifies to make these rankings are hurting the ability of many qualified wrestlers in obtaining scholarships to wrestle in college or it forces them to wrestle at a lower division or smaller D1 program. Let the top tournaments be the deciding factor on who is the best and get the subjectivity out of wrestling or get a group of former college coaches who really know how to rate a wrestler's ability and potential.
What are your thoughts on this?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Dan Ransick added to this discussion on July 28, 2007
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I wouldn't worry about it to much. I think that sometimes not going could do some wrestlers a lot of good and just being able to lift and perfect technique.
I know this wasn't the best showing in Fargo but I think that the Junior program will be fine. They will have some great Cadets coming up next year in the form of Clark, Stieber, White and Stephens just to name a few.
Most of the class of 2007 didn't go because they just had nothing to prove they felt. If you would had the class of 2007 go you would have seen the number of AA's go up.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Josh Lowe added to this discussion on July 28, 2007
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I highly doubt kids aren't going to "protect" national rankings. That's silly if you ask me. College coaches aren't recruiting based on the rankings. If they are, they're not doing their homework imo. The rankings are there for discussion, interest, and the fans; at least that's my take.
Ohio just didn't have the great showing because the kids happened to just fall a match or two short against very tough competition. It happens. Lots of good kids went (ex- all the core 285's that have went to Fargo in the past did, just that none AA'd in FS).
There happens to be a trend across the country of top seniors not going to Fargo before college (the national boards have been yacking about this the last couple days). In fact, there are college programs that are discouraging their kids from going to Fargo due to injury risk (look at Cyler Sanderson's situation as the prime example of that). On the other hand, some kids that are graduated seniors go to Fargo because their coaches want them to go. Another factor with the graduated seniors is cost - with college expenses upcoming (no matter what scholarship type you're on, there are still expenses), taking another 2K hit when you account for it all may not be best.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Michael Rodriguez added to this discussion on July 29, 2007
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Ken Ramsey Sr...."These "dime a dozen" rankings that have no set rules for who qualifies to make these rankings are hurting the ability of many qualified wrestlers in obtaining scholarships to wrestle in college or it forces them to wrestle at a lower division or smaller D1 program."...First, too many young wrestlers that have no business in DI (or big time DI) go there as it is. Too many aren't at that level, wash out in a year ot two, and are just not prepared for NCAA DI wrestling. DII or DIII is rarely a bad option for most wrestlers. Second, can you name any wrestler who was "
hurt
" by rankings? Or any Big DI coach who relies so heavily on them that he'd look past a kid's high school achievements and potential at the next level?
Also, if a second or third tier kid wants to get noticed or effect the rankings, Fargo becomes more appealing, not less.
If your looking for someone to blame for what you consider to be a sub-par performance at Junior Nationals, blame the wrestlers. Clearly you don't think the ones that went did a good enough job, and the ones that chose not to go did so for all the wrong reasons.
If an elite kid that has battled for four years of Ohio high school wrestling along with summer camps and Fargo GR/Freestyle wants to take his senior summer and prepare for the next level or just take some time off, that's fine with me. No kid
has
to go to Fargo.
Anyway, I don't think the Junior results at Fargo had anything to do with rankings.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Dan Cosimi added to this discussion on July 29, 2007
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On rankings...
The best compete against the best regardless of what anyone ranks them. While rankings have become more common, they are all helping both the kids get recruited and college coaches in knowing who to recruit. Just because a kid is not ranked doesn't mean the college coaches won't go after him. One of our state's best wrestlers, Muhammad Abdur-Rahman, was recruited by big and small schools, and wound up at D2 Ashland University because it was the best fit for him. It was definitely not because Ashland was the only school recruiting him. I know for a fact that they weren't the only ones. Abdur-Rahman was never ranked (as far as I know) by the national publications and wasn't ranked in the top bunch by the state prognosticators until the end of his junior year.
On Ohio's Junior Freestyle performances...
The Junior Duals scenario has been previously discussed and what we've heard was that there were significant holes in the lineup that were not able to be filled for whatever reason. Jeff Leonard does a great job with the team and I'm sure he did everything he could to make it happen. The Fargo performance was sub-par for Ohio's high standards, but that happens every once in a while. I remember a few years ago the Cadet Greco-Roman team had one All-American: Josh Rohler, who took 7th place. I also remember when we had a Junior Freestyle team that was amazing - Dustin Schlatter, C.P. Schlatter, Steve Luke, J Jaggers, Jason Johnstone, Dustin Fox, Tony Johnson, Rocco Caponi, etc. It's a cycle and as such, we'll have some years that are better than others. This year's Cadet Freestyle team was very good. In a couple years we'll have David Taylor, Logan Stieber, Hunter Stieber, Jamie Clark, Sam White, Cam Tessari, Chris Phillips, Riley Kilroy, etc. all on the Junior Freestyle team and they'll become household names like the Schlatter, Luke, and Jaggers of the recent past.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Gary Corroto added to this discussion on July 29, 2007
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I don't beleive that the results are the product of some sort of cycle where Ohio's talent just happened to be down this year. IMO a trend has started over the past few years where seniors in Ohio have chosen not to compete. I am not sure what the reasons are for this but it is undeniable. It seems to me that up until about 2004-2005 most of Ohio's top seniors wrestled at Jr. Duals and Junior nationals. During the past couple of years they have not. Unless this trend changes, I think that
jr. national program will continue to see these types of results.
Just off the top of my head I can name several potential all-americans that did not go: Straughn, Nemec, Sponseller, Weakly, Honneycut.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on July 29, 2007
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Michael:
Agreed, too many wrestlers are going to D1 that don't belong there; but the point I am trying to make is that they are getting there because they are being rated higher than their ability. Many college coaches are letting the rankings do their work for them and find out that they should have done a better job of following up on what should only have been an outsider's evaluation.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Ken Ramsey Sr. added to this discussion on July 29, 2007
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Gary:
Exactly, even in down years in the past the Ohio teams have still ended up in the top five. You listed a few of the best senior wrestlers who did not compete, but there were many more and when you add in the juniors and sophomores there is way too many not competing. I agree with you if this trend doesn't stop it will impact Ohio wrestling greatly.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on July 29, 2007
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Ohio seems to be in love with the Disney Duals right now and many summer squads are sweeping up the best kids to compete in Fla. How many kids are going to wrestle folkstyle down south for a week then come back in a month (less?) and wrestle freestyle or greco in Fargo?
Also, as others have stated, many standout seniors are now choosing to skip Fargo. I think they're tired after competing relentlessly for a long period of time.
Still, aren't these factors affecting other states as well? If we're (Ohio) so good, how come we didn't come close to winning Disney and only had one squad (Cadet Freestyle) that had a standout performance in Fargo?
Does Ohio lack depth?
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Josh Lowe added to this discussion on July 29, 2007
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Disney is a NON-factor for most other states. Only PA, MI, and FL really have strong showings at Disney. IL had one association team and one community team go - both did very well.
Trust me, Ohio is doing pretty well. Our in-season performances bear that out. ONE underachieving year at the Junior Nationals and ONE year of no duals teams not withstanding.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on July 31, 2007
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Josh--I trust your judgement.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on July 31, 2007
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"Does Ohio lack depth?" -------Hank, come on, get serious, at Div I NCAAs last March: Ohio tops with 12 AAs, PA 11, NY 3rd with 7--- --- some others NJ 5, Calif 5, Okla 3, Minnestota 1.
mighty PA has had 2 sub-par years in fargo Jr ntl freestyle--- normally very powerful but PA only 2 or 3 Jr ntl AAs last year and 7 this year -- Ohio had 13 or 14 last year and 6 this year.
one problem is getting COACHES, i went to st Eds Junior ntl camp as i always stop by and familiar faces numbered 2: Greg Urbas and Brian Dolph. Basically have to be a teacher because requires taking 2 weeks off. In fargo it was better since a couple well known cadet coaches like Erik Burnett helped coach the Juniors too.
and those who say not as many graduated seniors participate are right. i think many of those that go to NHSCA Seniors, like Sponseller who was OW there, those kids feel like they can stay at home until reporting for college. Of course Nemec was recovering from surgery.
btw, Leo Saniuk vice-chairman of USA WR Ohio told me he analyzed Disney Duals Ohio participaton, and he says
about 500 of Disney's 1,500 wrestlers were from Ohio.
Amazing !!!
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Hank Kornblut added to this discussion on August 1, 2007
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Bob--Having depth has nothing to do with how many D1 AA's Ohio produces. In specific, I'm referring to the quality of our wrestlers below the elite level. My question has to do with how good our second and third tier guys are in comparison to NJ, PA, Ill, etc... I'm aware that we are one of the national leaders in producing the top level kids each year (hence 12 AA's).
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Bob Preusse added to this discussion on August 1, 2007
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well Hank,
how much evidence you want ? --- Ohio the last 2 years total added up more fargo junior ntl Freestyle AAs than PA --- Ohio cadet Freestyle this year 13 AAs, only one below PA in Team title standings. Freestyle is what the college coaches come to see, not Greco, they don't show up for Greco. Ohio close 2nd to PA in cadet freestyle last summer too. Ohio has won fargo Junior freestyle 3 times in the last decade, a decade dominated by PA overall out there. No one else has won 3 except PA.
Ohio (12 NCAA Div I AAs and) 2nd to PA--- albeit a distant 2nd--- in # of NCAA Div I qualifers this year.
the last couple years took Ohio 3rd at NHSCA Senior nationals, which are off years for Team Ohio in that event which they have won far more than even 2nd place California.
Add it all up, evidence is Ohio certainly has plenty of depth. Many may believe PA has more--- and i wont dispute that, its not a big deal, 2nd to PA aint bad ---- but Ohio certainly ahead of every other state, and i think
overall
pretty close to PA right now in depth.
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Discussion Topic: Ohio's Junior National program
Rex Holman added to this discussion on August 3, 2007
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The Junior Nationals was/is the tell tale sign of an athletes commitment and ability to wrestle. Hence, the who's who of college coaches at the event. Having never been to the Disney Duals, I don't know what it is about. It might be the right opportunity for wrestlers to improve their skills, take in Disney World and have a good time.
You have to bleed this sport to wrestle year round and peak at the Juniors. It is pretty much a total sacrifice of your summer to become the best wrestler you can be with no guarantees. I appreciate every kid that embarks on that challenge and if they come up a little short, so be it. Should the best wrestlers in Ohio compete at Juniors, absolutely barring extenuating circumstance.
If that much wrestling is too much, then you will find out pretty quickly that Div I wrestling is not the place for you.
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